Trump and the Wall

theotherwaldo

Well-known member
I just wish that they would go ahead and install the panels that are finished. I'm tired of looking at them.
There's about thirty acres of them here, stacked 25 feet high, and they block the view from the end of my street.
Too bad that all of those obstructionists are determined to keep the border open so that they can keep all of their smuggling and human trafficking operations going, using frustrating Trump as an excuse... .
 
I explained to my oldest daughter exactly WHY the issue with "Dreamers" is a problem in the first place.

It's a problem because they're in a legal limbo with respect to citizenship PRECISELY because the politicians which enacted the laws affecting them DELIBERATELY DID NOT INCLUDE A CLEAR PATH TO CITIZENSHIP FOR THESE PEOPLE.

And this was done PRECISELY to create a group of people who can be manipulated for political gain over the issue of citizenship.

They are, in effect, political footballs for exactly the same reasons many children of divorced/separated parents are being used in parental power fights.

And guess who was primarily responsible for it? Yep...the Democrats.

I say "primarily" because BOTH parties use the subject of illegal immigration in power plays.
 

Blue Jays

Member
Wall on the southern border is excellent because it halts about 99.99% of people who encounter it.
One has to seriously ask themselves how many people are sufficiently physically fit to scale a 25-foot wall, while accompanied by kids, carrying all their worldly possessions, and with electronic sensors indicating a breach?
 

WrongHanded

Well-known member
Wall on the southern border is excellent because it halts about 99.99% of people who encounter it.
One has to seriously ask themselves how many people are sufficiently physically fit to scale a 25-foot wall, while accompanied by kids, carrying all their worldly possessions, and with electronic sensors indicating a breach?
A "wall" means little to a determined and resourceful person.

To be effective it must be complete, and be constantly and well guarded and maintained.

Did you know there are backpack oxy-acetylene torches? Or a guy could throw a regular set on an ATV, and cut a lot of holes in one night.

Better thing to do is enact a minimum mandatory prison sentence of 10 years for any CEO, Company President, or Company Owner who's company is found to be employing illegals. No exceptions. That would fix the financial incentive to come here or remain here illegally.
 

roscoe

Well-known member
A "wall" means little to a determined and resourceful person.

To be effective it must be complete, and be constantly and well guarded and maintained.

Did you know there are backpack oxy-acetylene torches? Or a guy could throw a regular set on an ATV, and cut a lot of holes in one night.

Better thing to do is enact a minimum mandatory prison sentence of 10 years for any CEO, Company President, or Company Owner who's company is found to be employing illegals. No exceptions. That would fix the financial incentive to come here or remain here illegally.

I have one of those backpack oxy sets. Never used it for that, though.

But, yes, the only way, historically, to stop a contraband economy is to cut off the demand. Trying to cut off at the supply has never worked (see: Prohibition bootlegging, War on Drugs, illegal diamond trade, illegal arms trade, human trafficking, etc., etc.). If you arrest the employers of illegals, all of the would cease almost overnight. Of course, developers, agricultural corporations, and other major employers of illegal immigrants are big political donors, so that is a non-starter . . .
 

WrongHanded

Well-known member
If you arrest the employers of illegals, all of the would cease almost overnight. Of course, developers, agricultural corporations, and other major employers of illegal immigrants are big political donors, so that is a non-starter . . .
Yep! I heard something about "draining the swamp" at one point. Didn't work out too well I guess.
 

theotherwaldo

Well-known member
The problem is that a very large group of wealthy and influential people of all political leanings like the idea of having a pool of people that they can treat like peasants, serfs and slaves... .
 

roscoe

Well-known member
The problem is that a very large group of wealthy and influential people of all political leanings like the idea of having a pool of people that they can treat like peasants, serfs and slaves... .

Decades ago, when I was a carpenter, I used to work in Southern Arizona on housing developments. Since I spoke Spanish, I was often chatting with the Mexican workers. Their incentives were simply economic, and these people were in no ways 'enemies' of the USA. One guy was a registered nurse, educated and certified, but at the time, a framer on a production framing crew made many times more than a registered nurse in Mexico. These guys made money that they mostly sent home to their families, and when possible, they would go back across the border to be with their families, and then come back.

Calling these people 'enemies' as a justification for inhuman treatment fails on a couple of levels. First of all, the separation policy of Stephen Miller and Trump was simply immoral. Calling someone an 'enemy' justifies all kinds of treatment that would be immoral to any other group of people. So, by reframing the language, it became OK to do some pretty terrible things to a very poor and vulnerable group of people. In my view, that whole line of reasoning and action is immoral and unchristian, and really goes against much of what we think it it to be an American. There are some folks here who have defended it, and as far as I am concerned, they are defending the undefendable, even though they don't like being told that their morals may be askew.

There are better ways to handle this, from a more humane and economically sound perspective. The first thing is to arrest and imprison the CEOs, CFOs, and managers of corporations that hire illegal workers. That will constrain demand significantly, which will do the most to prevent illegal immigration. Second, we need to institute a seasonal worker program on a larger scale. If there are jobs that just cannot be filled by Americans in large enough numbers, then there needs to be a way for these people to come over, work for 6 months (or whatever), then return. With a legitimate way to cross over and work, all (or almost all) the traffic would be through legal channels where we could more easily monitor sex trafficking, contraband, etc. With them having temporary status, they could also avoid the kind of exploitation that leads to sex trafficking, blackmailing, etc. But most of all, for the US, it would mean allowing us to control all kinds of aspects of the migration pattern that currently we have no leverage over (we could do background checks, monitor employment patterns, collect taxes, etc.). It would eliminate the antagonistic relationship, with all the benefits that accrues with cooperation (e.g information on groups associated with terrorism who are trying to sneak across).

Now we would have to get to some consensus on what kind of work (e.g. relatively unskilled) work would be allowed, to prevent having any impact on American jobs. But there do seem to be some kinds of jobs Americans won't do - picking lettuce all day in the Arizona sun is a tough sell to a modern American.

The wall was never going to work because it is a simple, dumb solution to a complex problem. But it appealed to folks who are looking for a simple answer. Unfortunately, reality is not simple. To change behavior, you need to incorporate the economic perspective of incentives. Humans are very much economic animals with sophisticated behaviors, and problem-solving is often difficult.
 
Last edited:

theotherwaldo

Well-known member
Roscoe:
I don't know what your relationship with Mexican migrant workers has to do with people being smuggled from all over the world in a way that functionally assures that they will never become legal residents of our country.

This is how you build a permanent class of untouchables and slaves.

-And the Wall was serving its primary function of making it more difficult for the cartels and their coyotes to bring over the human herds that they would drive across the deserts, hold as hostages or sell into slavery... .
 

roscoe

Well-known member
My point was twofold: to address people (including posters in this forum, although not you) who have characterized economic illegal immigrants (the vast majority of the border-crossers) as 'enemies' who can be treated inhumanely.

Secondly, to argue that the wall, because it does not address the demand end of the equation, is destined not to solve the problems of illegal immigration.
It was a simplistic solution that, along with the description of these people as 'enemies', was designed to appeal to people's worst in-group instincts, (a Trump specialty).
 
Last edited:

Blue Jays

Member
I still would love to see how many posters here could quickly climb a thick rope, or scale two 25-foot ladders, or burrow beneath 10-feet of steel-reinforced concrete...all while holding a toddler, wearing a 70-pound backpack, and not being seen by an extensive array of electronic border protection. Several posters fancy themselves as Special Forces, it seems.
 

WrongHanded

Well-known member
I still would love to see how many posters here could quickly climb a thick rope, or scale two 25-foot ladders, or burrow beneath 10-feet of steel-reinforced concrete...all while holding a toddler, wearing a 70-pound backpack, and not being seen by an extensive array of electronic border protection. Several posters fancy themselves as Special Forces, it seems.

I could tell you about my climbing experience..... But right now, I'd probably just walk around the thing.

I'm not sure what this "extensive array of electronic border protection" is, but the border is what, almost 2000 miles long? Sounds very expensive. A half mile wide no-man's land/minefield sounds like it might be less expensive.
 

Howland937

Active member
I still would love to see how many posters here could quickly climb a thick rope, or scale two 25-foot ladders, or burrow beneath 10-feet of steel-reinforced concrete...all while holding a toddler, wearing a 70-pound backpack, and not being seen by an extensive array of electronic border protection. Several posters fancy themselves as Special Forces, it seems.
Well, I'll tell you this. When I was a younger, more ambitious man I could drive a 5 speed with a beer in my hand and one in the cupholder. Crack one open in first gear, have it gone before I got 3rd gear, grab the 2nd beer and have it empty before I hit 60mph. Can or bottle. Didn't matter. 86 f-150 with a straight 6 did take a while to get to 60 though.
As far as all that climbing stuff, I have been called a fat monkey before...but never a fast fat monkey.
 

theotherwaldo

Well-known member
Well, Trump came back and the Wall is going up again.
He and Governor Abbott gave a series of speeches here in Hidalgo County.
Suddenly the gates to the Wall section storage lots are open and the Wall panels are heading out to the border.
The local Leftists and smugglers are furious.

Meanwhile, Biden is ending the last part of the "return refugees to Mexico until their cases are processed" regulations.
Almost anyone that makes it to the border is home free for at least a couple of years... .
 

theotherwaldo

Well-known member
Meanwhile, the death rates of the border-crossers keep rising.
Hudspeth County, Texas for example, has found around 18 dead illegals so far this year - and Hudspeth County, which is up near El Paso is not one of the major human smuggling areas.
Normally, they only find the remains of around four of these unfortunates in an entire year... .
 
Top