Trump and the Wall

theotherwaldo

Well-known member
I just wish that they would go ahead and install the panels that are finished. I'm tired of looking at them.
There's about thirty acres of them here, stacked 25 feet high, and they block the view from the end of my street.
Too bad that all of those obstructionists are determined to keep the border open so that they can keep all of their smuggling and human trafficking operations going, using frustrating Trump as an excuse... .
 
I explained to my oldest daughter exactly WHY the issue with "Dreamers" is a problem in the first place.

It's a problem because they're in a legal limbo with respect to citizenship PRECISELY because the politicians which enacted the laws affecting them DELIBERATELY DID NOT INCLUDE A CLEAR PATH TO CITIZENSHIP FOR THESE PEOPLE.

And this was done PRECISELY to create a group of people who can be manipulated for political gain over the issue of citizenship.

They are, in effect, political footballs for exactly the same reasons many children of divorced/separated parents are being used in parental power fights.

And guess who was primarily responsible for it? Yep...the Democrats.

I say "primarily" because BOTH parties use the subject of illegal immigration in power plays.
 

Blue Jays

New member
Wall on the southern border is excellent because it halts about 99.99% of people who encounter it.
One has to seriously ask themselves how many people are sufficiently physically fit to scale a 25-foot wall, while accompanied by kids, carrying all their worldly possessions, and with electronic sensors indicating a breach?
 

WrongHanded

Active member
Wall on the southern border is excellent because it halts about 99.99% of people who encounter it.
One has to seriously ask themselves how many people are sufficiently physically fit to scale a 25-foot wall, while accompanied by kids, carrying all their worldly possessions, and with electronic sensors indicating a breach?
A "wall" means little to a determined and resourceful person.

To be effective it must be complete, and be constantly and well guarded and maintained.

Did you know there are backpack oxy-acetylene torches? Or a guy could throw a regular set on an ATV, and cut a lot of holes in one night.

Better thing to do is enact a minimum mandatory prison sentence of 10 years for any CEO, Company President, or Company Owner who's company is found to be employing illegals. No exceptions. That would fix the financial incentive to come here or remain here illegally.
 

roscoe

Active member
A "wall" means little to a determined and resourceful person.

To be effective it must be complete, and be constantly and well guarded and maintained.

Did you know there are backpack oxy-acetylene torches? Or a guy could throw a regular set on an ATV, and cut a lot of holes in one night.

Better thing to do is enact a minimum mandatory prison sentence of 10 years for any CEO, Company President, or Company Owner who's company is found to be employing illegals. No exceptions. That would fix the financial incentive to come here or remain here illegally.

I have one of those backpack oxy sets. Never used it for that, though.

But, yes, the only way, historically, to stop a contraband economy is to cut off the demand. Trying to cut off at the supply has never worked (see: Prohibition bootlegging, War on Drugs, illegal diamond trade, illegal arms trade, human trafficking, etc., etc.). If you arrest the employers of illegals, all of the would cease almost overnight. Of course, developers, agricultural corporations, and other major employers of illegal immigrants are big political donors, so that is a non-starter . . .
 

WrongHanded

Active member
If you arrest the employers of illegals, all of the would cease almost overnight. Of course, developers, agricultural corporations, and other major employers of illegal immigrants are big political donors, so that is a non-starter . . .
Yep! I heard something about "draining the swamp" at one point. Didn't work out too well I guess.
 

theotherwaldo

Well-known member
The problem is that a very large group of wealthy and influential people of all political leanings like the idea of having a pool of people that they can treat like peasants, serfs and slaves... .
 

roscoe

Active member
The problem is that a very large group of wealthy and influential people of all political leanings like the idea of having a pool of people that they can treat like peasants, serfs and slaves... .

Decades ago, when I was a carpenter, I used to work in Southern Arizona on housing developments. Since I spoke Spanish, I was often chatting with the Mexican workers. Their incentives were simply economic, and these people were in no ways 'enemies' of the USA. One guy was a registered nurse, educated and certified, but at the time, a framer on a production framing crew made many times more than a registered nurse in Mexico. These guys made money that they mostly sent home to their families, and when possible, they would go back across the border to be with their families, and then come back.

Calling these people 'enemies' as a justification for inhuman treatment fails on a couple of levels. First of all, the separation policy of Stephen Miller and Trump was simply immoral. Calling someone an 'enemy' justifies all kinds of treatment that would be immoral to any other group of people. So, by reframing the language, it became OK to do some pretty terrible things to a very poor and vulnerable group of people. In my view, that whole line of reasoning and action is immoral and unchristian, and really goes against much of what we think it it to be an American. There are some folks here who have defended it, and as far as I am concerned, they are defending the undefendable, even though they don't like being told that their morals may be askew.

There are better ways to handle this, from a more humane and economically sound perspective. The first thing is to arrest and imprison the CEOs, CFOs, and managers of corporations that hire illegal workers. That will constrain demand significantly, which will do the most to prevent illegal immigration. Second, we need to institute a seasonal worker program on a larger scale. If there are jobs that just cannot be filled by Americans in large enough numbers, then there needs to be a way for these people to come over, work for 6 months (or whatever), then return. With a legitimate way to cross over and work, all (or almost all) the traffic would be through legal channels where we could more easily monitor sex trafficking, contraband, etc. With them having temporary status, they could also avoid the kind of exploitation that leads to sex trafficking, blackmailing, etc. But most of all, for the US, it would mean allowing us to control all kinds of aspects of the migration pattern that currently we have no leverage over (we could do background checks, monitor employment patterns, collect taxes, etc.). It would eliminate the antagonistic relationship, with all the benefits that accrues with cooperation (e.g information on groups associated with terrorism who are trying to sneak across).

Now we would have to get to some consensus on what kind of work (e.g. relatively unskilled) work would be allowed, to prevent having any impact on American jobs. But there do seem to be some kinds of jobs Americans won't do - picking lettuce all day in the Arizona sun is a tough sell to a modern American.

The wall was never going to work because it is a simple, dumb solution to a complex problem. But it appealed to folks who are looking for a simple answer. Unfortunately, reality is not simple. To change behavior, you need to incorporate the economic perspective of incentives. Humans are very much economic animals with sophisticated behaviors, and problem-solving is often difficult.
 
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theotherwaldo

Well-known member
Roscoe:
I don't know what your relationship with Mexican migrant workers has to do with people being smuggled from all over the world in a way that functionally assures that they will never become legal residents of our country.

This is how you build a permanent class of untouchables and slaves.

-And the Wall was serving its primary function of making it more difficult for the cartels and their coyotes to bring over the human herds that they would drive across the deserts, hold as hostages or sell into slavery... .
 
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