Who's Still Wearing A Dem Diaper?

Yes, the woman I know is still alive. I know quite a few who didn't make it though. I understand virus strains, I took Biology. If it mutates, your immunity is lessened or gone, finite.

I think we are really missing the real issue, which is the fact that health care systems are getting overwhelmed, when that happens, people start dying from other more treatable things because they cant get into the hospital. I don't know about where you are, but where I live there are refrigerated trucks in the hospital parking lot, and our ICU is almost full. If the mask can help with even a fraction of that, I say suck it up and wear it, not like it is detrimental to you.

The Last Outlaw said:

... I don't know about where you are, but where I live there are refrigerated trucks in the hospital parking lot, and our ICU is almost full. If the mask can help with even a fraction of that, I say suck it up and wear it, not like it is detrimental to you.

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Then I think we agree that it's best as a personal responsibility decision based on accurate and honest information given about the necessity to do so in the area affected. Not as a blanket one-size-fits all nationwide or even statewide mandate. Because here conditions aren't that desparate. And a governor mandating the same set of emergency measures for one area that doesn't need them as for another area that maybe does is overreaching, and therefore acting from some other motive than the public interest, IMO.

Again, I was the first in my circle to bring up the issue of health care systems being overwhelmed. But at this late date, some responsibility (or assignment of irresponsibility, rather) needs to be given to health care providers who were given several months by the initial lockdowns to ramp up, and didn't. I feel for all the front-line health workers that were compelled to stand in harm's way by their feckless administors. I think back to early March of 2020 when I had an appointment scheduled. I called my Doctor's nurse to ask if staff was now wearing masks when dealing with patients. She said they were not. I asked if they were aware the virus was airborne and was transmitted by assymptomatic and presymptomatic persons. She said yes, then added, and I remember it well: "that's above my pay grade." Man, if I worked for people like that, I'd find another job somewhere else. But I suppose that's a fruitless quest these days when health care organizations are run by the bean counters, not by real doctors.

I don't say these things out of self-interest. I say them out of concern for society, for the nation, for freedom, and for humanity.

I have to ask, what is the big deal about wearing the mask? I also have to add, isn't SARS a coronavirus? Where exactly are they just "living with it"?

The Last Outlaw said:

... I also have to add, isn't SARS a coronavirus? Where exactly are they just "living with it"?

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All humans and animals all over the world have been living with coronaviruses about as long as they've all been in existence. Coronaviruses are everywhere. You're probably breathing air containing some coronavirus if you're in a room with another live animal or human.

Quote from webmd.com:

A coronavirus is a kind of common virus that causes an infection in your nose, sinuses, or upper throat. Most coronaviruses aren't dangerous.

In early 2020, after a December 2019 outbreak in China, the World Health Organization identified SARS-CoV-2 as a new type of coronavirus. The outbreak quickly spread around the world.


COVID-19 is a disease caused by SARS-CoV-2 that can trigger what doctors call a respiratory tract infection. It can affect your upper respiratory tract (sinuses, nose, and throat) or lower respiratory tract (windpipe and lungs).


It spreads the same way other coronaviruses do, mainly through person-to-person contact. Infections range from mild to deadly.


SARS-CoV-2 is one of seven types of coronavirus, including the ones that cause severe diseases like Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) and sudden acute respiratory syndrome (SARS). The other coronaviruses cause most of the colds that affect us during the year but aren’t a serious threat for otherwise healthy people.

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Just wearing a mask is no big deal. Being required to wear a mask by authority's mandate when it's not necessary and when the authority to proclaim such a mandate is not constitutional is a big deal.

I do sometimes still wear a mask when it's appropriate, and would not hesitate to don a mask if requested to do so by another person who was either uncomfortable with my presence, or if personally requested or required by the owner or manager of the private property location I was in. I will not don a mask simply because it's a government executive's "mandate".

wiscoaster said:

In any case, he's an administrator, not a practicing clinician, and as such, at the very least, he's out of touch.

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This is inaccurate. He is a highly-qualified immunologist with many scientific discoveries (and his work is very highly-cited in scientific journals). He is well-known to keep up on all the latest research in immunology and epidemiology. His role as administrator does not in any way prevent him from being up to date on current science. Many of the most qualified scientists rise to administrative roles, and remain the world's experts (as he is).

You are simply making unsupported assertions because you do not like his conclusions.

roscoe said:

...Many of the most qualified scientists rise to administrative roles, and remain the world's experts (as he is).

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I think you need to research the "Peter Principle".

Here, I'll even help you out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

Scientists are not known to be good administrators, and the inverse applies as well.

And if he was so up on COVID, why did he keep changing his tune on it?

wiscoaster said:

All humans and animals all over the world have been living with coronaviruses about as long as they've all been in existence. Coronaviruses are everywhere. You're probably breathing air containing some coronavirus if you're in a room with another live animal or human.

Quote from webmd.com:



Just wearing a mask is no big deal. Being required to wear a mask by authority's mandate when it's not necessary and when the authority to proclaim such a mandate is not constitutional is a big deal.

I do sometimes still wear a mask when it's appropriate, and would not hesitate to don a mask if requested to do so by another person who was either uncomfortable with my presence, or if personally requested or required by the owner or manager of the private property location I was in. I will not don a mask simply because it's a government executive's "mandate".

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You are suggesting we just allow folks to follow their best judgement. There are obviously many aspects of public life in which we simply cannot do this. Humans are poor assessors of risk, especially over long time periods. This is why you are required to have a driver's license and insurance to drive a car (or a bond). This is why buildings are inspected before people can move it, etc. The mask mandate isn't philosophically different. We can't trust contractors to just build good buildings every time, and the cost of failure is just too great. The same with driving - it is inherently dangerous, so we require people to be qualified and insured, because the risk and cost of automobile injury is so great. These same principles underlie mask mandates - most folks don't understand the principles of contagious diseases, and the cost of the spread is just too great.

Just deeming something a 'personal choice' is simplistic.

wiscoaster said:

All humans and animals all over the world have been living with coronaviruses about as long as they've all been in existence. Coronaviruses are everywhere. You're probably breathing air containing some coronavirus if you're in a room with another live animal or human.

Quote from webmd.com:



Just wearing a mask is no big deal. Being required to wear a mask by authority's mandate when it's not necessary and when the authority to proclaim such a mandate is not constitutional is a big deal.

I do sometimes still wear a mask when it's appropriate, and would not hesitate to don a mask if requested to do so by another person who was either uncomfortable with my presence, or if personally requested or required by the owner or manager of the private property location I was in. I will not don a mask simply because it's a government executive's "mandate".

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So, if you approach the entrance of an establishment that has a sign stating that a mask is required for entry, do you oblige? Do you wait until it's asked of you on an individual basis?

roscoe said:

You are suggesting we just allow folks to follow their best judgement.

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Yes I am. People are not stupid. They are ignorant. People act for their own best interests. When people are given true facts and made aware of the consequences of their bad decisions in the light of those facts, acting in their own interest is going to lead them to making good judgments. Humans are good assessors of risk when they have all the facts about what the risks are and what the consequences are. It's simple survival. Something a human does instinctively. You have a way too low opinion of the majority of people. I believe they should be left free to determine their own risk levels so long as they impose no unknown risk on others and are willing to accept the consequences to themselves of the risks they take on their own behalf. Simply telling people what to do and then keeping them in the dark about why is unacceptable authoritarian behavior in a free society.

Howland937 said:

So, if you approach the entrance of an establishment that has a sign stating that a mask is required for entry, do you oblige? Do you wait until it's asked of you on an individual basis?

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I've been making that decision on an ad hoc basis.

wiscoaster said:

I've been making that decision on an ad hoc basis.

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The source of my frustration with people failing to wear a mask isn't in the trip to Walmart or Home Depot. It's when I take my kid to an amusement park that was only given permission to open after they sued the governor's office. Certain stipulations were required and some were self imposed, but masks were a requirement from the get-go.

When ride operation is halted repeatedly because people who chose to be there decide the rules don't apply to them, we're gonna have problems. When I've spent just as much of my hard-earned money to be there, because for one day my kid gets a brief respite from the doom and gloom, then yeah...screwing that up for him is going to be an issue.

Management informed the patrons that their ability to remain open is contingent upon people cooperating and following guidelines. They're under the proverbial microscope and could be forced to close just as quickly as they opened. Yet people continually refuse, risking screwing it up for everyone else... thumbing their nose at the rules and the people who made them...and me, along with everyone else who did what was asked of them.

Makes it hard not to take it personally.

And that's not even touching on the people working there, who could potentially lose their source of income. But hey, let's show them.

Howland937 said:

Makes it hard not to take it personally.

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Please DO take it personally. I'm almost crying. People should NOT have to live like this. Courage!! What is RIGHT is not easy to discern. Sometimes a risk needs to be taken. The easy way out is usually not the best way leading to the best result.

I really think people are looking to see people with some spine and some character to show them the way out.

wiscoaster said:

Yes I am. People are not stupid. They are ignorant. People act for their own best interests. When people are given true facts and made aware of the consequences of their bad decisions in the light of those facts, acting in their own interest is going to lead them to making good judgments. Humans are good assessors of risk when they have all the facts about what the risks are and what the consequences are. It's simple survival. Something a human does instinctively. You have a way too low opinion of the majority of people. I believe they should be left free to determine their own risk levels so long as they impose no unknown risk on others and are willing to accept the consequences to themselves of the risks they take on their own behalf. Simply telling people what to do and then keeping them in the dark about why is unacceptable authoritarian behavior in a free society.

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No legitimate scientific authority is keeping people in the dark about the need for masks. In fact, I would argue the opposite - people have been informed about their importance by the relevant medical authorities, but have decided that it is more important to show allegiance with their chosen leader. Since this is a leader who makes decisions based on his personal vanity over every other consideration, it cannot be considered rational. The decision not to wear a mask is inextricably linked with their personal belief in Trump (as a generalization). So, to that extent, I do not trust their decision-making.

roscoe said:

No legitimate scientific authority is keeping people in the dark about the need for masks.

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No, absolutely you are 180 degrees off base. Scientific authorities are NOT in agreement on the need for masks and some of them are intentionally (and criminally) misleading us. People have been misinformed and even intentionally lied to. Witness cheap and existing therapeutics which have been censored by big tech at the behest of big pharma. People should be prosecuted and people should be going to jail for mass homicide. And those with an MD after their names stripped of their medical credentials for violating their oaths to Hippocrates!!

I wear a mask at work and when out and about near other people. As I am not always able to distance myself at work, I could be exposed then infect others later on. Keeping the number of infections down makes us stronger as a whole. I thought everyone understood this.

I understand that some people think their right to spread disease trumps the rights of others to live; especially those who are more vulnerable to illness. The simple fact is that a cloth mask is like covering your cough, it helps prevent an infected from infecting others. It does little to protect the person wearing it. In my opinion the anti-mask people are the kind of people who expect others to carry the load. They do not want to be part of the solution.

wiscoaster said:

No, absolutely you are 180 degrees off base. Scientific authorities are NOT in agreement on the need for masks and some of them are intentionally (and criminally) misleading us. People have been misinformed and even intentionally lied to. Witness cheap and existing therapeutics which have been censored by big tech at the behest of big pharma. People should be prosecuted and people should be going to jail for mass homicide. And those with an MD after their names stripped of their medical credentials for violating their oaths to Hippocrates!!

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OK, with big claims like that, you need evidence. Are you espousing debunked homeopathics? Chloroquine? Thanks, I will wait for real medicine.

All you have to do is compare US rates to countries where a real leader stepped up and used the science. There is a reason the US has the worst infection rate among other similarly advanced countries. Trump et al are morally culpable for the differences, even as Facuci did the best he could to try to get the correct information to the US population. Note that the US has a large population, but not the largest. This is a shameful graph, and it is partially because people won't wear masks:

Ranb said:

I understand that some people think their right to spread disease trumps the rights of others to live;

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There is no "right to spread disease" and I have no idea where you're getting that fantastic notion from my posts in this thread. I can only speculate that you're a left-wing troll sent here to disrupt an intelligent discussion.

Furthermore, the cloth mask you're wearing does almost nothing either to protect you from others or to protect others from you. A mask classified as a "surgical-grade" mask will protect others from your respiratory secretions and exhalations to a significant degree, and a mask rated at "N95" by the NIOSH will protect both ways for 95% of virus-sized particles. But a mask compromised of common cloth, even multiple layers, does almost nothing to benefit public health. It does, however, make you compliant with "face-covering" mandates. Therefore, what good is the mandate? It makes you compliant. Nothing more.

roscoe said:

Thanks, I will wait for real medicine.

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Hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin and both REAL medicine with years, decades even, of safety profiles and demonstrated effectiveness, and that data and results of recent trials have been surpressed and censored so that both the public and medical community are unaware. I've been taking ivermectin myself as a prophylactic safely and without side effects for a month that I've been going (mostly) maskless. You need to do your own research, but don't do it using Google. I did my research way back in early 2020 before the references were censored and I do know what I'm talking about. I'm not fantasizing or hypothesizing. Effective therapy has been actively suppressed in this country and you can only speculate why but my take is that it's all dollars and cents. Big pharma isn't going to make any money on ivermectin, but countries like India that can't afford the government subsidy for new pharma developmet early on researched for everything and anything that worked and they came up with hydroxychloroquine and later, ivermectin. These drugs are effective and they are cheap. Five doses of ivermectin will cost you about $3. You remember Pres. Trump taking HCQ? It was after he stopped taking it, probably at the insistence of his medical advisors, that he contracted the virus.






Why doesn't your doctor know this stuff? There IS real medicine. Why isn't it available? Should some people be going to jail for the unecessary deaths occurring in this country?

Sorry, forum, if this post gets you knocked off Google, but it's the truth.

wiscoaster said:

Hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin and both REAL medicine with years, decades even, of safety profiles and demonstrated effectiveness, and that data and results of recent trials have been surpressed and censored so that both the public and medical community are unaware. I've been taking ivermectin myself as a prophylactic safely and without side effects for a month that I've been going (mostly) maskless. You need to do your own research, but don't do it using Google. I did my research way back in early 2020 before the references were censored and I do know what I'm talking about. I'm not fantasizing or hypothesizing. Effective therapy has been actively suppressed in this country and you can only speculate why but my take is that it's all dollars and cents. Big pharma isn't going to make any money on ivermectin, but countries like India that can't afford the government subsidy for new pharma developmet early on researched for everything and anything that worked and they came up with hydroxychloroquine and later, ivermectin. These drugs are effective and they are cheap. Five doses of ivermectin will cost you about $3. You remember Pres. Trump taking HCQ? It was after he stopped taking it, probably at the insistence of his medical advisors, that he contracted the virus.

Open letter to Dr. Anthony Fauci regarding the use of hydroxychloroquine for treating COVID-19

August 12, 2020

www.thedesertreview.com

https://osf.io/wx3zn/

Ivermectin is effective for COVID-19: real-time meta analysis of 32 studies

Ivermectin is effective for COVID-19. Early treatment - 85% improvement, p < 0.0001. All studies - 77% improvement, p < 0.0001. 1 in 4 billion probability results of the 32 studies are from an ineffective treatment (p = 2.3e-10).

ivmmeta.com

Why doesn't your doctor know this stuff? There IS real medicine. Why isn't it available? Should some people be going to jail for the unecessary deaths occurring in this country?

Sorry, forum, if this post gets you knocked off Google, but it's the truth.

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Hey, I have taken chloroquine on and off for years, for malaria, so you don't have to tell me of its safety. But it doesn't cure COVID, sorry. COVID is a virus, and malaria is caused by a protozoan.

BTW - no one is opposed to a cheap palliative. My mother was saved by a combination of plasma and prednisone, both of which are cheap medications. But they won't prevent the disease - only a vaccine can do that.

READ THE DATA. NUMBERS DON'T LIE. RESULTS AREN'T A PALLIATIVE.

If a cheap generic prevents deaths, why aren't we using it, is all I'm asking?

A mask is only a part of a complete strategy to defeat a pandemic. A vaccine is another part. Effective therapeutics are another part. Why is our country ignoring part of a complete strategy to focus on a part that doesn't do the whole job? I can only conclude there's more to the strategy than defeating the pandemic. Whether it's just dollars or whether it's politics and power or whether both I don't know and can't prove. But by just accepting a mask mandate as "the" solution without doing your own research and coming up with the same questions I came up with I just think that you're part of the problem. And anything that smacks of overreaching authoritarianism should be questioned regardless of its efficacy. That is what a free people would do when their freedoms are infringed. Temporary infringements for the "public good" tend to be difficult to roll back.

Thank you and good night all.