Who's Still Wearing A Dem Diaper?

[roscoe]

READ THE DATA. NUMBERS DON'T LIE. RESULTS AREN'T A PALLIATIVE

READ THE DATA. NUMBERS DON'T LIE. RESULTS AREN'T A PALLIATIVE.

If a cheap generic prevents deaths, why aren't we using it, is all I'm asking?

A mask is only a part of a complete strategy to defeat a pandemic. A vaccine is another part. Effective therapeutics are another part. Why is our country ignoring part of a complete strategy to focus on a part that doesn't do the whole job? I can only conclude there's more to the strategy than defeating the pandemic. Whether it's just dollars or whether it's politics and power or whether both I don't know and can't prove. But by just accepting a mask mandate as "the" solution without doing your own research and coming up with the same questions I came up with I just think that you're part of the problem. And anything that smacks of overreaching authoritarianism should be questioned regardless of its efficacy. That is what a free people would do when their freedoms are infringed. Temporary infringements for the "public good" tend to be difficult to roll back.

Thank you and good night all.

Numbers don't lie? Oh man!!

I did read the linked study, but a single meta-analysis is insufficient. I don't know if you understand statistical significance and scientific data, but it is easy to cherry-pick studies for a meta-analysis, because some will have a spurious result based on chance alone.

But none of this speaks to the issue of masks, which is a cheap and non-big pharma way to prevent the spread of the disease. Refusal to wear one in groups of people just because . . . 'FREEDOM' is the height of selfishness and irresponsibility.

I am no fan of big pharma (they are pretty much evil), but I doubt the presence of a big conspiracy here.

 

[wiscoaster]

I did read the linked study,

I added more after you read it, including sworn testimony of a clinical physician to a Senate subcommittee.

 

[MidRoad]

Yep, work requires it, as does the grocery store. The Mrs is pregnant and my mother is a disabled diabetic who constantly needs help and is immune comprimised.

Two of my coworkers caught the virus,my brother inlaw, and my cousin (along with her husband and their kids). Most of them had very bad flu symptoms and recovered fine. My one coworker ended up in the hospital for a few days and the other is having memory issues since recovery. Upstate NY has been on an uptick though, so we will see what happens.

So yea ive been taking extra steps to keep my family healthy. Shit, no one has even caught a cold this season so thats a plus. I 100% think the government is over reaching, dont get me wrong. But if wearing a mask reduces the chances (even if its slim) ill do it.

 

[JohnKSa]

Furthermore, the cloth mask you're wearing does almost nothing either to protect you from others or to protect others from you.

They are not as effective as surgical masks which, in turn, are not as effective as properly fitting N95 masks, but saying they "do almost nothing" to protect others or you is incorrect.

Can face masks protect against COVID-19?

Face masks can help slow the spread of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). Learn about mask types, which masks to use and how to use them.

www.mayoclinic.org

It is also true that cloth and surgical masks to more to prevent an infected wearer from spreading than they do to prevent the wearer from contracting the disease, but they do protect the wearer to some extent. If everyone wears them, even the relatively poor performing multi-layer cloth masks, the overall protection level is quite significant.

What is also often missed is that reducing the amount of virus laden droplets that get into one's respiratory system is beneficial even if there isn't 100% exclusion. Reducing the initial "dose" of the virus seems to result in less serious cases of illness.

My one coworker ended up in the hospital for a few days and the other is having memory issues since recovery.

I think a lot of people think that they will get it and it will just be like a bad flu. About 10% of people who get it have long term, potentially permanent symptoms. 70% to 80% of the people who are hospitalized with it will have long term, potentially permanent symptoms.

The actual risk of dying is pretty small. What should be worrying people is the potential for never being the same again after getting sick with it which is a much higher probability, actually.

 

[Ranb]

There is no "right to spread disease" and I have no idea where you're getting that fantastic notion from my posts in this thread. I can only speculate that you're a left-wing troll sent here to disrupt an intelligent discussion.

You're not understanding what I said. There is no right to spread disease. But some people act like they have such a right. Read my post again. I've been sent? No. I am a long standing member of various gun forums and have been somewhat active in politics for a while. Mostly on easing gun possession restrictions.

Furthermore, the cloth mask you're wearing does almost nothing either to protect you from others or to protect others from you.

I said a mask does little to protect the person wearing it. I also claimed that wearing one is like covering your cough. Do you disagree?

Wearing a mask helps keep you from spraying others with infected saliva when you cough or sneeze near them. Almost everyone knows this, why don't you?

I've been trained in industrial hygiene by the Navy since 1984, I know what the benefits and limitations of filtered masks and respirators are.

 

[Ranb]

Hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin and both REAL medicine with years, decades even, of safety profiles and demonstrated effectiveness, and that data and results of recent trials have been surpressed and censored so that both the public and medical community are unaware.

Even the quacks are no longer claiming that this stuff does anything for covid-19.

 

[The Last Outlaw]

All humans and animals all over the world have been living with coronaviruses about as long as they've all been in existence. Coronaviruses are everywhere. You're probably breathing air containing some coronavirus if you're in a room with another live animal or human.

Quote from webmd.com:



Just wearing a mask is no big deal. Being required to wear a mask by authority's mandate when it's not necessary and when the authority to proclaim such a mandate is not constitutional is a big deal.

I do sometimes still wear a mask when it's appropriate, and would not hesitate to don a mask if requested to do so by another person who was either uncomfortable with my presence, or if personally requested or required by the owner or manager of the private property location I was in. I will not don a mask simply because it's a government executive's "mandate".

I don't need to be educated on the history of coronavirus. I know that they are all around us all the time. None of that answers my question. Tell me exactly where they are just "living with" SARS.

 

[wiscoaster]

I'm a person who originally thought as most of you do, and probably sooner than you did as well. I kept an open mind, continued doing my own research, and later changed my mind based on the evidence as it was discovered, accumulated and reported. If your minds are already made up and closed to new evidence then there's no point in trying to change them. Humans generally change their minds based on their own research and their own experiences, not on the arguments of others. I would just encourage you all to do more research with open minds, and also to consider the results on society, on the country, and on people of current practices and policies in this country. Don't ignore what's going on outside of this country; there seems to be less censorship going on out there.

 

[The Last Outlaw]

I'm a person who originally thought as most of you do, and probably sooner than you did as well. I kept an open mind, continued doing my own research, and later changed my mind based on the evidence as it was discovered, accumulated and reported. If your minds are already made up and closed to new evidence then there's no point in trying to change them. Humans generally change their minds based on their own research and their own experiences, not on the arguments of others. I would just encourage you all to do more research with open minds, and also to consider the results on society, on the country, and on people of current practices and policies in this country. Don't ignore what's going on outside of this country; there seems to be less censorship going on out there.

I didn't think you could name a place where they are "just living with" SARS....

 

[Howland937]

They are not as effective as surgical masks which, in turn, are not as effective as properly fitting N95 masks, but saying they "do almost nothing" to protect others or you is incorrect

On the topic of N95 masks here's something I found strange and a bit frustrating.

When this whole mess began and the mask-wearing first became a recommendation, I dug around in my utility closet and found a nearly full box of 3M N95 masks that I'd bought when I had to repair leaking water lines inside my bathroom wall (mold, insulation, near death experience).

I gave a handful of them to my sister-in-law, who works in the local ER and was required to don a mask right away. They told her she wasn't allowed to wear THAT kind of mask since she wasn't a physician or nurse. She has to wear cloth or paper masks, then they asked her to donate all the N95 masks she had.

 

[wiscoaster]

I didn't think you could name a place where they are "just living with" SARS....

No, I can't name any place where they're "just living with SARS" but SARS is a coronavirus and we're all living with coronaviruses all the time all over the world. Eventually SARS will become just another coronavirus that we're "just living with" and I wonder if the way we're approaching SARS is just making that transition more lengthy and more deadly.

BTW, I had a nice day at the range today, so sorry you didn't have my posts to kick around to keep you occupied.

 

[Ranb]

I gave a handful of them to my sister-in-law, who works in the local ER and was required to don a mask right away. They told her she wasn't allowed to wear THAT kind of mask since she wasn't a physician or nurse. She has to wear cloth or paper masks, then they asked her to donate all the N95 masks she had.

The N95 masks I'm familiar with require a fit test to ensure they seal on your face properly. If they don;t fit right, then they are not going to protect the person wearing it. It will work as well as a cloth mask to protect others nearby though.

Did they have outlet vents? If they did, then they only protect the person wearing it, not others nearby. My wife bought some for her mom in Thailand when the fires pollute the air, They have vents and only protect the wearer.

 

[Ranb]

I'm a person who originally thought as most of you do, and probably sooner than you did as well. I kept an open mind, continued doing my own research, and later changed my mind based on the evidence as it was discovered, accumulated and reported.

What did your research reveal regarding coughing and sneezing near a person while you might be infected. Did the data you found say it was okay to cough on people instead of covering your cough with your hand or a cloth mask?

 

[Ranb]

Here is President Trump wearing his Dem Diaper. https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-wears-face-mask-in-public-first-time-coronavirus

Perhaps he was pandering like when he banned bump stocks or had the police beat a path through a group of people for his photo op.

 

[Howland937]

The N95 masks I'm familiar with require a fit test to ensure they seal on your face properly. If they don;t fit right, then they are not going to protect the person wearing it. It will work as well as a cloth mask to protect others nearby though.

Did they have outlet vents? If they did, then they only protect the person wearing it, not others nearby. My wife bought some for her mom in Thailand when the fires pollute the air, They have vents and only protect the wearer.

No outlet vents...just the plain old disposable kind like they used to sell about everywhere that sold any home repair stuff. For sanding, working with fiberglass, etc... Yellow straps that went around your whole head above and below your ears. I think mine were a 20 pack. The teachers in my family raided the rest of my stash months ago.

I don't think they fit any better...or worse...than the paper surgical or homemade cloth masks though.

 

[JohnKSa]

I gave a handful of them to my sister-in-law, who works in the local ER and was required to don a mask right away. They told her she wasn't allowed to wear THAT kind of mask since she wasn't a physician or nurse. She has to wear cloth or paper masks, then they asked her to donate all the N95 masks she had.

Right. There was a big push to reserve the N95 masks for people who were knowingly going into close contact with those who were infected.

1. They had the most need.
2. They had the training to use them properly including how to insure fit, how to put them on and even more importantly, how to take them off properly.

...SARS is a coronavirus and we're all living with coronaviruses all the time all over the world.

This is like saying that a person in close contact with lions doesn't need to worry about safety because lions are cats and people live with cats in their houses all the time all over the world.

The fact that two things are in the same general family doesn't mean that they have the same safety impact. For example, there are some viruses in the herpes family that are nearly benign and others that can cause life-threatening cancer. The idea that they should all be considered to be the same thing and that they all pose similar threats just because they're all in the same family doesn't hold water.

It's like saying that it's ok to release murderers if they have brothers or sisters who are living a lawful life and aren't posing any danger to society because they're all in the same family and some of them are obviously not dangerous.

I kept an open mind, continued doing my own research, and later changed my mind based on the evidence as it was discovered, accumulated and reported.

And you're still doing that, right?

 

[Bikerdoc]

Some random thoughts......
Derek just appointed me a mod here. Some of you might know me from THR.
I just got to say:
Congrats gentlemen.
This has been a calm, rational discussion! Intelligent, thoughtful points on both sides and it amazes me it has gone 4 pages without rancor.
You are all to be congratulated for presenting calm, thoughtful, intelligent arguments on the subject. At THR this topic would degenerate fast and get locked.
I'm proud to be a part of this forum and even prouder of you all for the intelligent discussion.
Stay safe my friends and God Bless!

 

[The Last Outlaw]

No, I can't name any place where they're "just living with SARS" but SARS is a coronavirus and we're all living with coronaviruses all the time all over the world. Eventually SARS will become just another coronavirus that we're "just living with" and I wonder if the way we're approaching SARS is just making that transition more lengthy and more deadly.

BTW, I had a nice day at the range today, so sorry you didn't have my posts to kick around to keep you occupied.

Glad you had a good day at the range. I was just bringing up SARS because it is a coronavirus that we definitely aren't just learning to live with. Thanks for finally attempting to answer my question.

 

[Phantom 309]

I basically have to at least half the time if I want to work. I'm a mechanical contractor and we have service contracts with several senior living communities. You won't even get through the door without a mask.

Now, when I'm working in the boiler room or on the roof the mask comes off. I'd much rather be able to actually see through my safety glasses. They don't fog up much when they are down on the tip of your nose, but they do no good way down there.

 

[JohnKSa]

If you have to wear a mask with glasses, you may be entitled to condensation...

We have to wear them at work from the time we get out of our cars in the parking lot until we get back into them. They do make an exception for eating and drinking for people who are at least 6 feet from any other person. And yes, they do come around every once in awhile to verify compliance. I have to wear reading glasses when I have my contacts in, so it is kind of a pain at times.