Who's Still Wearing A Dem Diaper?

[wiscoaster]

Well, I think we'd best just leave it there.

I'm not an MD, so I'm not qualified to make a formal diagnosis.

I do know what I experienced, and no amount of explanation or debate can change my experience of my reality. I do know that my observations and empirical evidence proved to me that my experience was: 1) physiological, 2) respiration-related, 3) initiated while wearing an N95 mask, 4) terminated immediately after removing the mask.

Could it have been something other than respiratory acidosis? Sure, I suppose that's entirely possible. Did the mask play no part? No, that's not at all possible.

 

[JohnKSa]

I do know what I experienced, and no amount of explanation or debate can change my experience of my reality.

There's an explanation for what you felt that fits the science--which is a good thing since that's how science works.

I do know that my observations and empirical evidence proved to me that my experience was: 1) physiological, 2) respiration-related, 3) initiated while wearing an N95 mask, 4) terminated immediately after removing the mask.

All of which is completely consistent with the results of the study.

Did the mask play no part? No, that's not at all possible.

I can't tell if you didn't read my last post or didn't understand it. There's nothing in it that suggests that your symptoms were not related to wearing a mask or that wearing a mask can't cause discomfort. In fact, I quoted the study which explicitly notes that wearing an N95 mask can cause: "severe subjective discomfort during exercise" that is "subjectively disturbing".

Again, I'm not trying to convince you that you had no symptoms. I'm also not trying to convince you that it wasn't due to wearing a mask. What I'm saying is that the symptoms you felt were not due to hypercapnia/CO2 poisoning. It has been repeatedly shown that N95 masks will not cause hypercapnia/CO2 poisoning, even during exertion.

The key to all this is keeping an open mind, doing research (there's a huge amount of good information out there), and being willing to change one's mind based on the evidence as it is discovered, accumulated and reported. A lot of people are NOT doing that and are, instead, either intentionally or unintentionally spreading misinformation. There's already enough of that going around--no need for any more.

 

[wiscoaster]

Dizziness and tunnel vision are hardly subjective in nature, and unrelated to discomfort. There was clearly something physiological in nature and related to the mask that was going on. You can still perform and report on the results of your own experiment, in which case I can consider attributing the event to my own personal physiology. Until I get a report of hard empirical evidence I'll continue to attribute it to the mask.

 

[JohnKSa]

There was clearly something physiological in nature and related to the mask that was going on.

You still haven't looked at the study or carefully read my posts.

I posted earlier (based on the study) that the effects were due to: "increased loading on the respiratory/cardio system due to the mask" which is certainly physiological.

From the opening line of the study: "Ventilation, cardiopulmonary exercise capacity and comfort are reduced by surgical masks and highly impaired by FFP2/N95 face masks in healthy individuals." Clearly physiological.

More from the study: "...the effects of surgical masks and FFP2/N95 masks on cardiopulmonary exercise capacity yields clear results. Both masks have a marked negative impact on exercise parameters such as maximum power output (Pmax) and the maximum oxygen uptake (VO2max/kg). FFP2/N95 masks show consistently more pronounced negative effects compared to surgical masks. Both masks significantly reduce pulmonary parameters at rest (FVC, FEV1, PEF) and at maximum load (VE, BF, TV)."

Clearly physiological.

Until I get a report of hard empirical evidence I'll continue to attribute it to the mask.

IT WAS THE MASK! I've been agreeing with you on that point the whole time but you haven't been reading my posts carefully enough to realize it.

FURTHERMORE, I provided you with a study with "hard empirical evidence" explaining why the mask made you feel the way it did but you haven't even bothered to read so much as the opening sentence of the study or you wouldn't still think I'm saying that it wasn't the mask. This after posting earlier in the thread about doing research and having an open mind and being willing to change one's mind based on new evidence.

Again, IT WAS THE MASK. I don't think there's any reasonable doubt that it was the mask. BUT, it was NOT hypercapnia/CO2 poisoning. The study provides detailed information (which you, with your advanced knowledge of respiration and gas exchange should be able to easily understand) explaining what sort of PHYSIOLOGICAL effects result. NONE of them have anything to do with CO2 poisoning/hypercapnia.

 

[wiscoaster]

Well, then I believe we've finally reached agreement: wearing an N95 mask for a length of time under conditions of elevated activity can produce physiological symptoms detrimental to attention and performance, and that the symptoms can be borderline and insidious. Which was what I postulated at the very beginning of our lengthy exchange (beginning a post #97), and I maintained throughout. My only mistake was in attributing my experience definitively to respiratory acidosis, when I'm not qualified to diagnose that. But you attributed my experience to my imagination or anxiety or "discomfort", or rebutted using extreme language such as "poisoning". (Yes, I have been reading your posts, and politely calling you on only a few instances of your changing or inaccurate points, and largely giving you a pass on your hyperbole). My understanding of the cause was based on matching symptoms experienced to online symptom lists. (Not visa versa: finding symptoms that match a hypothetical diagnosis, aka "data mining"). Of course, "if it barks like a dog ....", you have to forgive me for believing that it actually was a dog.

 

[JohnKSa]

...wearing an N95 mask for a length of time under conditions of elevated activity can produce physiological symptoms detrimental to attention and performance, and that the symptoms can be borderline and insidious. Which was what I postulated at the very beginning of our lengthy exchange (beginning a post #97),

Don't be silly.

1. The study says nothing about symptoms being "borderline or insidious".

2. Your new position, while still not quite right, is very different from what you claimed that started this exchange. Here's what you said:

Wearing <N95 masks> for any length of time produces produces hypercapnia (excess carbon dioxide level in the blood) due to re-inhaled carbon dioxide.

Symptoms of carbon dioxide poisoning include nause, vomiting, dizziness, headache, rapid breathing, fast heart rate, and flushing (warmth, redness, or tingling of the skin). Symptoms of severe cases of carbon dioxide poisoning may include confusion, convulsion and loss of consciousness.

Don't wear one of these masks while driving!!

Have you noticed that these days a lot of people you deal with, people who are required to wear a mask for long periods of time, see to be slightly confused?

There is NOTHING in your original claim about "elevated activity" which is a critical component of the study results.

There is NOTHING in the study results (or in any study results) suggesting that hypercapnia is caused by N95 masks, that wearing N95 masks while driving is dangerous or that it causes confusion

But you attributed my experience to my imagination or anxiety or "discomfort", or rebutted using extreme language such as "poisoning".

You seriously need to re-read this thread. I made no accusations about imagination or anxiety. I even explicitly stated that there was a scientific explanation for your symptoms--but that it did not involve hypercapnia.

As far as the term "poisoning", you first used that term in your post #97 (see above) and then it was in several of the sources I quoted. There was no intent on my part to make anything "extreme" any more than you meant to when you included the quote in your post that had the term "poisoning" in it.

1. You are not reading what I'm posting or you wouldn't accuse me of saying the symptoms were your imagination or accuse me of being the one that introduced the term "poisoning" to the discussion.

2. You aren't even keeping track of what you are posting or you wouldn't do such a poor job of summarizing the position that you clearly stated in post #97 and you would have realized that you were actually the one who introduced the term "poisoning" to the discussion.

I'm curious what your goal is given that you appear to have little interest in actually reading what I'm posting or keeping track of what you are posting?

 

[wiscoaster]

My goal is to get you to try it for yourself. See post #112. Repeated in #119 and #123. Which you ignored. So at this point, put up or shut up.

 

[JohnKSa]

You STILL haven't read my posts!

I believe what happened to you. I've said that numerous times now.

From your experience and from the study results, I already know what the results would be. So there is absolutely zero benefit to duplicating what you did and what the study did because it's clear what the outcome would be.

So basically for the last two pages of this thread, you've been posting without even understanding what I've been saying. What a waste of your time and mine! The crux of the disagreement is WHAT caused the symptoms (It was not hypercapnia.) , I'm not saying and have not said that you did not experience symptoms.

 

[wiscoaster]

The crux of the disagreement is WHAT caused the symptoms

The mask, of course.

You seem to get pretty upset when people disagree with you or your can't convince them you're right. Poor baby. You're going to have a rough life. I even offered you a way to convince me and you refused to try it. Sorry, but this conversation is over.

 

[JohnKSa]

The mask, of course.

YES--it was the mask combined with exertion. I've been agreeing with you the entire time.

You seem to get pretty upset when people disagree with you or your can't convince them you're right.

That's just it. You're not disagreeing with me--you're either so lost that you don't even know what's going on in the discussion, or you're just trolling. Honestly, I kind of hope it's the latter for your sake.

I even offered you a way to convince me...

Convince you that I'm agreeing with you? That doesn't even make sense!

Sorry, but this conversation is over.

It was over when you either stopped understanding what was being posted or decided that you were no longer going to participate constructively. I kept hoping that maybe I could get you back on track with what's going on in the discussion, but apparently that's not possible.

Go ahead and have the last word so you can feel good about the exchange. You can even throw in an insult or two if that's what it takes.

 

[wiscoaster]

Go ahead and have the last word ...

OK, fair enough: if you're ever in Appleton, look me up and happy hour is on me at a pub of my choice.