Responding to crazy...

Magnum

Well-known member
Hey all,
I wanted to start this thread out of a bit of frustration , maybe you have something similar . a few members of my family are leftys, not middle type sane folks who lean left- nope, antifa loving ,BLM following , AOC type leftists. They plaster their BS all over social media and shout down anyone trying to reason with them or ask them to defend their position. I'll share the latest from my SIL and what I would respond but I can't because the family fued that would result would not be worth it- here's the post-
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Dearest SIL,
Don't you think "white people living in white neighborhoods" would know if they , themselves are racist? Aren't these the people who you claim are the cause of this divide? Can't you see that the people who you directly accuse of racism should have a chance to defend themselves against broad and ignorant statements , instead of just saying "what the f*** would you know?"? I'll tell you what I know, I know that saying "white people do xxx" IS RACIST against people who's skin color is lighter than some other people, nothing more. I understand and believe that individual racism exist, there are dumb people of every race but to claim the system is racist must be proven if I'm expected to agree.

Show me a law that sets different standards based on race, you can't . Show me the disproportionate number of minorities that have been oppressed in modern america, folks of asian decent consistently out perform other races academically & professionally , they're minorities so who's holding them down? What about Obama , how could he have become the most powerful man on earth if the system was designed to keep him down?

Hasn't occurred to you that black culture and inner city mentality glorifies crime through rap "music" and celebrities that promote illegal activity? This is why there is a drastically disproportionate number of black men in prison, welfare culture has promoted and encouraged single parent households with young black men who use gangsters as a role models which causes the cycle to continue. It's sad but until moral men are seen as role models in the black community this is going to continue. Black athletes who make more in one season of playing ball than I'll make in multiple lifetimes kneel and scream oppression , this is nonsense .

if a judge is biased convicting black men and over sentencing them to prison time then that individual should be corrected- it isn't the system. If an officer unfairly targets and abuses their authority that individual needs to be corrected, there is no memo from the cheif that says brutalize minorities, if it exists show me. There is no proof of institutional racism, bad individuals acting on their own bias don't represent me or all other Caucasians. That's like saying all black people hate white people because al Sharpton hates white people and has admitted to spitting in white customers food when he worked in a restaurant.

Why would white unarmed men be killed by police every year exceed the number of black unarmed men if the cops are out there killing minorities for sport? 9 unarmed black men killed by police in 2019 is hardly systematic . the number should be zero but that isn't reality, the streets are ugly and sometimes it gets sideways , the officers are held accountable, their lives are ruined even when justified, no one wants that regardless of how racist they may or may not be. Do Americans hate Germans? The Nazis killed thousands of our patriots last century. Do we hate Vietnamese folks? They killed thousands of our young men. Do we hate Japanese? Or any of the other nations of people we've been at war with? Nope. Neither side sees it that way.

Slavery ended , anyone who expresses openly racist rhetoric is shunned by EVERYONE. I'd actually go as far as saying that black racists outnumber white racist by a large margin. As an example , what would happen if I went 40 miles from my home to the south side of chicago, let's say Stony Island area- 98% black, .3% white, I can't walk down the street there without being in fear for my life and with good reason. How about Compton , how about areas of Baltimore , how about any ghetto in the US? Now show me a single neighborhood where a black man would fear for his life to walk down the street. Maybe in some backwoods redneck town they could get some friction but probably not. I lived in the hills of east Tennessee as rural and redneck as it gets and I saw black folks around (although very few) but they were not in fear of their life and carried on as normal citizens without a problem. I'm sure there were ignorant individuals who didn't like them but that's INDIVIDUALS , not the mass population.

I can accuse anyone of anything without proof but that doesn't make it true. Institutional racism is such a crock, if it exists shouldn't there be systematic protocols that separate people by race? I blame Obama for this divide widening , he's a black racist who harmed race relations more than anyone in modern history .

Normal black folks don't blame the system for the trouble. I have a good friend who is a black man in his 70s, he lived through segregation and racism - real racism and he'll be the first to tell you these assholes have lost their mind, he hates the divide and told me these punks don't know oppression. I believe him and feel the same way.

---rant off---



I just wanted to vent about the BS they've been cramming down our throats. They're building a new foundation of anti-white racist and the media is condoning it . what ever happened to a person being judged by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin? Generalizing white people is no less racist than someone saying "all black people" do xxxx. Plain and simple. It's now normal to be called a racist and if you attempt to defend yourself they'll say "you can't see past your white privilege " or "your opinion is invalid on the subject". They need to get off their high horse and gave real conversation rather than finger pointing and accusations, that helps nothing . even black conservatives are labeled and mocked by the media because they're not buying it. I'd just like someone to provide real evidence of this systemic racism instead of just shouting down anyone who questions them. We're all brothers and sisters and if you see skin color as a way to determine ANYTHING about someone, you are in fact a racist . simple.

What are your thoughts. If you have gripes with social media posts that you can not freely respond to , post it here and rant. I've got some other screenshots I can rant on but I'll see how this one goes.
 

Olon

Active member
THR and this are the only social media I'm on mainly because I had a tendency to waste too much time on them but also because they're not outlets for productive discussion.

Sometimes I wonder how people can be so blind to their own stupidity, which then brings me to wonder if I'm making ridiculous assumptions and pawning them off as obvious truths. I don't think that's the case.

It seems like these people are so quick to say whatever is sensational and appeals to group think. I bet if conservatives were depicted as the majority in media (and social media) we wouldn't have so many of these "brave" revolutionaries.

I wonder how they would do in a time when actions had real, immediate consequences. When you're liable to get punched in the mouth for acting like a prick, you probably won't act like a prick. You can't cry because you need a safe space and then turn around and burn somebody's house.

It's hard to say what started or has encouraged this type of nonsense. Our society has long abandoned the de facto moral standards which were in place long ago and chaos has ensued... This generation hasn't experienced any collective hardship to toughen it up and bring it to grips with reality, which I believe is to blame for the outrage over "microagressions." Government handouts have smothered the hard-working spirit in many. It's a troubling situation.

TLDR: People are pansies and joining a community of pansies helps them escape reality
 

Magnum

Well-known member
THR and this are the only social media I'm on mainly because I had a tendency to waste too much time on them but also because they're not outlets for productive discussion.

Sometimes I wonder how people can be so blind to their own stupidity, which then brings me to wonder if I'm making ridiculous assumptions and pawning them off as obvious truths. I don't think that's the case.

It seems like these people are so quick to say whatever is sensational and appeals to group think. I bet if conservatives were depicted as the majority in media (and social media) we wouldn't have so many of these "brave" revolutionaries.

I wonder how they would do in a time when actions had real, immediate consequences. When you're liable to get punched in the mouth for acting like a prick, you probably won't act like a prick. You can't cry because you need a safe space and then turn around and burn somebody's house.

It's hard to say what started or has encouraged this type of nonsense. Our society has long abandoned the de facto moral standards which were in place long ago and chaos has ensued... This generation hasn't experienced any collective hardship to toughen it up and bring it to grips with reality, which I believe is to blame for the outrage over "microagressions." Government handouts have smothered the hard-working spirit in many. It's a troubling situation.

TLDR: People are pansies and joining a community of pansies helps them escape reality
I agree, immediate and real consequences would deflate a lot of the nonsense. I have one house in my neighborhood with a BLM sign on their lawn and I walk the block with my kids everyday after dinner. The guy who lives there has said hi in the past if he's outside, but since all this hoopla has started and his sign has been out he's taken an antisocial attitude . if he's outside now and sees me coming up the street he'll go inside to avoid saying hi to a neighbor . yes, I'll wear a MAGA hat sometimes but I'm not aggressive and don't expect others to share my views. But to this guy I'm the devil I guess. No discussion nessescary .

I had a one year long fued with my mom because of a FB post that said "anyone who voted for trump is a racist" and she refused to admit it was nonsense. Then my lefty aunt piled on and started ranting that I'm stuck on fox news , when I told them I don't have cable and don't watch fox then she started calling me a liar. I unfriended her because I wasn't going to deal with it and the next day her son (my cousin) who lives in Japan and has for over 20 years bombed my FB page with "repeal the 2nd amendment " post repeatedly. I'm too old for that shit so I blocked him too. All because none of them wanted to have an honest conversation about it. They couldn't , it was just them accusing me of racism , bigotry and hate when I said was that trump supporters aren't racists. They flew off the handle and melted down.

Now that same aunt lives about 50 miles from here and I haven't had contact with her for over a year and I was always polite but I blocked her. She has cancer and my uncle had a stroke a couple weeks ago and I was told I'm not welcome to visit. Why? Because I'm a conservative . who's the closed minded one?

My wife's best friend from childhood is another liberal lunatic. She claims that thousands of illegals are murdered by trump every year. Not his agency's and not his policy , him personally. I told her that was absurd and she flew off the handle and said "what about all the kids he rapes every year?". I told her I have no clue what she's talking about, provide some evidence , which made her more angry and said it's been covered up so no one knows about it. There is no civility or reason with the far left, being a conservative is way worse than being just a plain old murderer to them.

The world's gone crazy and I live in the land of the loonies.
 

Olon

Active member
As a nation we've lost our sense of objective morality which used to be upheld by social structures like churches, synagogues, community organizations, etc. and let Uncle Sam and Twitter outrage dictate what's right and wrong. With no moral compass, I guess I can't be surprised things are the way they are but you'd think most reasonable people would see what's going on and snap out of it.

I bet you wouldn't be surprised if your girls were fighting and one was covering her ears and pretending she couldn't hear the other... that's what children do. It's sad when that behavior becomes an acceptable form of discourse among adults.
 

Selena

Member
My reply is pretty much standard...

For me to debate this with you I would have to take you seriously. Since I was taught not to insult anothers' intelligence taking you seriously is not an option.
 

Magnum

Well-known member
My reply is pretty much standard...

For me to debate this with you I would have to take you seriously. Since I was taught not to insult anothers' intelligence taking you seriously is not an option.
Fair enough.
 

Magnum

Well-known member
My reply is pretty much standard...

For me to debate this with you I would have to take you seriously. Since I was taught not to insult anothers' intelligence taking you seriously is not an option.
The only thing I will point out is the irony , I mention in my original post that these people refuse an honest conversation and instead resort to name calling and nonsense. Which is exactly what you've done. Way to defend your position, I most certainly must be too stupid to understand anyway. :ROFLMAO:
 

Selena

Member
I have gotten to the point I'm simply tired of the lies being presented as facts and do not even give them lip service. The only way to win with toxic people is not to play.
 

Olon

Active member
I have gotten to the point I'm simply tired of the lies being presented as facts and do not even give them lip service. The only way to win with toxic people is not to play.
Believing you're the smartest person in the room is indeed a toxic behavior which makes discussions difficult.
 

Selena

Member
Believing you're the smartest person in the room is indeed a toxic behavior which makes discussions difficult.
Perhaps, but when presented with the so called "fact" that pedophilia is a sexual preference just like being gay or hetero it's not so much believing I'm smarter as refraining from doing bodily damage.
 

Olon

Active member
Perhaps, but when presented with the so called "fact" that pedophilia is a sexual preference just like being gay or hetero it's not so much believing I'm smarter as refraining from doing bodily damage.
Nobody here is claiming that...
 

Magnum

Well-known member
Perhaps, but when presented with the so called "fact" that pedophilia is a sexual preference just like being gay or hetero it's not so much believing I'm smarter as refraining from doing bodily damage.
If someone says pedophilia is a sexual preference , that is an opinion. A sick and stupid opinion . Facts are verifiable and opinions are not. No one can prove that strawberries are the best tasting fruit any more than they can prove that blue jeans are the most comfortable pants. No one presented opinion as fact here although opinion was included but presented as such as indicated by "I think" , "I believe" , ect.

I am truly interested in an honest conversation on the original topic with someone who disagrees without letting emotion drive the conversation . it isn't a conversation I've found anyone with an opposing view willing to discuss in a civil and even way. I suppose I won't be getting that from you either, that only reinforces my own opinions on the matter because no one has shown actual evidence to support their view and discredit mine. Really not trying to pick on you, just looking for other information I may be missing.
 

Selena

Member
Good luck with that. I used to try since I was neither "fish nor fowl" but found myself being told I was part of the problem. I always tried to get the other person to define their terms. In this case - what is systemic racism. To a person they gave "examples" of anecdotal evidence usually involving statistics of incarceration but never a baseline definition. As a result it's an argument on quicksand where any point -pro or con- can be redefined at will. Quite frankly, my kids are grown and I am no longer required to get into childish arguments.
 

WrongHanded

Active member
@Magnum , I think the confusion here is what is meant by the term "systemic".

To look at our laws - which most of us would consider the foundation of our system - one would be hard pressed to find anything racist (except 'affirmative action' and the like).

But just as the term "social distancing" doesn't mean don't be social, but rather it means to stay physically distant; "systemic" in this case is not about the law. It's about individual prejudice, which is not necessary part of a conscious thought process. And about how it can spread throughout pockets of society, without the effect being terribly obvious. Just like "white privilege" isn't about any privilege white people have, but rather about how minorities suffer a certain level of discrimination through "systemic" racism, that white people generally do not. Though there are certainly exceptions.

Getting hung up on the words as we would see them defined in a dictionary, only keeps us from seeing the other side. That doesn't mean we have to accept the other side, but it does allow us to more clearly understand it.
 

Magnum

Well-known member
@Magnum , I think the confusion here is what is meant by the term "systemic".

To look at our laws - which most of us would consider the foundation of our system - one would be hard pressed to find anything racist (except 'affirmative action' and the like).

But just as the term "social distancing" doesn't mean don't be social, but rather it means to stay physically distant; "systemic" in this case is not about the law. It's about individual prejudice, which is not necessary part of a conscious thought process. And about how it can spread throughout pockets of society, without the effect being terribly obvious. Just like "white privilege" isn't about any privilege white people have, but rather about how minorities suffer a certain level of discrimination through "systemic" racism, that white people generally do not. Though there are certainly exceptions.

Getting hung up on the words as we would see them defined in a dictionary, only keeps us from seeing the other side. That doesn't mean we have to accept the other side, but it does allow us to more clearly understand it.
Excellent, that does give a different perspective . that makes sense but I have a hard time seeing when the protestors differentiate . I would assume the traditional sense of systematic would be for things like police, historic monuments , authority in general as a whole- which we all have seen , they're against. The second kind of systematic in this case would be what you describe, individuals acting in their daily lives with a racial bias that perhaps they're unaware they have. do I have that straight ?

The second kind of systematic racism everyone normal is against, even if they may not recognize it -every race is guilty of it, I know most people don't consider themselves racist and to one degree or another I think that's accurate. Either way, it does not endear a racial group to others by violence , destruction and mayhem. If we're talking about the difference a minority may experience when they get pulled over for a traffic violation or goes to get their car worked on , there is no way to fundamentally change the relationship between races besides positive interaction. There is no way to legislate requirements for individuals to treat each other fairly. There will always be a range of appropriate responses to each situation and there is no way to say that for example : a cop gave a black guy a ticket for 5 mph over, if he were a white guy it would have been a warning. Of course either would be in the range of acceptable responses by the officer. Was it race or was it the attitude they got from the driver?


(Not asking you to defend BLM) If BLM claims that they're trying to repairing this sort of societal bias, they're going about it in a pretty strange way. Destruction harms that cause and makes more people biased out of fear, maybe that's the goal. If fear is in fact their goal , it won't end well. Just as I would call out a white racist, I'd call out a black racist just as quick . we all live here and no one says much about countless claims of "white people do xxx" , not sure how you see that but I call it racist. I'm more than my skin color as is everyone else and pointing fingers at an entire group shouldn't be accepted from any race.

All I can say is if someone is treated unfairly they should bring it to light with a legitimate claim against the individual responsible and not blame a system with no written rule that makes a specification of race. Change individuals hearts and minds and the systematic racism you refer to won't exist anymore, no sense to fight a system that hasn't singled them out.

Am I off on this?
 

WrongHanded

Active member
Excellent, that does give a different perspective . that makes sense but I have a hard time seeing when the protestors differentiate . I would assume the traditional sense of systematic would be for things like police, historic monuments , authority in general as a whole- which we all have seen , they're against. The second kind of systematic in this case would be what you describe, individuals acting in their daily lives with a racial bias that perhaps they're unaware they have. do I have that straight ?
Yes. Basically, though we are not born with a concept of racism, our exposure to the perspectives and biases of other people we are surrounded by, typically causes us to adopt a similar perspective. That's human nature; to fit in. I can't remember the exact quote but someone once said that our personalities are a composite of the 5 people who have the most influence in our lives. Or something along those lines. But, it could well be in some cases that one or more of those people is so unpleasant in our eyes, that we become somewhat the opposite of them. Often this is not something we really recognize, because we're simply too close. But, in general we tend to choose to surround ourselves (in modern times this may be online rather than in person) with people who see the world in much the same way as we do. With our ideals bolstered by like minded friends, we become even more entrenched in our beliefs and perspectives. Social media is making this even more on an issue, which is part of the reason our society has become so divided. There's a good documentary of this phenomenon on Netflix right now, titled 'The Social Dilemma'. We worth watching.

So imagine a workplace where the "watercooler talk" is full of racist jokes. Is it just humor? Or is it something more for some of those co-workers? A way to vent frustrations about issues of race, without being overtly racist? Is it then potential insidious? Does the new kid, fresh out of high school start to believe the stereotypes and derogatory comments? How about the veteran police officers that make off-the-cuff racists comments around the new recruit? Are they testing him? Does he need to be a part of that to fit in? Humor is a very effective tool for altering perceptions. See enough political memes - where the content of which is not entirely disagreeable to you - and pretty soon that underlying message can take hold. They can be funny, but they can also be marginalizing some point of view or belief.

The second kind of systematic racism everyone normal is against, even if they may not recognize it -every race is guilty of it, I know most people don't consider themselves racist and to one degree or another I think that's accurate. Either way, it does not endear a racial group to others by violence , destruction and mayhem. If we're talking about the difference a minority may experience when they get pulled over for a traffic violation or goes to get their car worked on , there is no way to fundamentally change the relationship between races besides positive interaction. There is no way to legislate requirements for individuals to treat each other fairly. There will always be a range of appropriate responses to each situation and there is no way to say that for example : a cop gave a black guy a ticket for 5 mph over, if he were a white guy it would have been a warning. Of course either would be in the range of acceptable responses by the officer. Was it race or was it the attitude they got from the driver?
I would say you are mostly correct: most people are racist to some degree, depending on how we define racism. If we were to define it based on thoughts alone, certainly the majority of people in a bi-racial or multi-racial society such as ours are at least somewhat racist. That's because we all have preconceived ideas about other based on many aspect of another's appearance, and we all judge each other. That's perfectly natural, and in my view we shouldn't really consider that racism. but if we were to define racism as treating someone differently because of their race, then we may find fewer people who fit the definition. Though I suppose we could argue that even for a white person to think "Oh, this person is Black, I better be extra nice so I don't come off as being racist" and then do just that, this in itself could be considered somewhat racist. Because even though we're making an attempt to not be racist, we've just been racist. I was once told, "We all have prejudice. It's up to us to identify it, and account of it." And if we could all do that, perhaps things would be better. However, it's far more common for people to point fingers and accuse each other of something terrible, than it is for us to apply a little empathy. The speeding ticket example being a prime one. Marginalizing all BLM protests as being violent and destructive would be another. And remember back in 2016 when Trump supporters were labelled as "Deplorables"? Same thing. It's easy to identify someone as an enemy, and dehumanize them, than it is to empathize and see the grey area between us and them.

(Not asking you to defend BLM) If BLM claims that they're trying to repairing this sort of societal bias, they're going about it in a pretty strange way. Destruction harms that cause and makes more people biased out of fear, maybe that's the goal. If fear is in fact their goal , it won't end well. Just as I would call out a white racist, I'd call out a black racist just as quick . we all live here and no one says much about countless claims of "white people do xxx" , not sure how you see that but I call it racist. I'm more than my skin color as is everyone else and pointing fingers at an entire group shouldn't be accepted from any race.

All I can say is if someone is treated unfairly they should bring it to light with a legitimate claim against the individual responsible and not blame a system with no written rule that makes a specification of race. Change individuals hearts and minds and the systematic racism you refer to won't exist anymore, no sense to fight a system that hasn't singled them out.

Am I off on this?
I already mentioned this, but not all the BLM protesters are involved in criminal activity. Not even most of them. There's a few things going on. Some people are very angry right now, and are feeling like they're just not being heard. It's not unusual for people to use violence and destruction to get what they want when peaceful methods fail. We can label this terrorism, but as someone once said "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". And I think the War of Independence was seen very differently from the side of the British than it was by the victors. Some people are out to use BLM as a cover for antisocial behavior - you can see those young white anarchists in the crowds; they just want to destroy stuff for fun. There are gangs using the protests as cover to loot stores and probably make some money selling stolen good on the black market. And then there's the mob mentality: It can be very easy for people to just get swept up in a crowd and do things they never would if they were alone - even if they had complete anonymity. I don't condone any of that behavior, or blocking streets, intersection, highways, or anything else like that. But I do understand it.

The unfortunate truth is that racism isn't about skin color. It's about stereotypes and cultures, and skin color is simply an indicator of what that person might be in regards to those things. When we see a person's skin color, we can see the potential of certain societal factors that shaped that individual's personality and world view, and so see the potential for who they may be. Upbringing, education, and social environment, all have a profound effect on how we see the world, and how we interact with it. So when you can look at someone, and just by the percentages make an educated guess that; they grew up in a single family home; lived in a poor neighborhood; received a substandard education; we're exposed to crime and violence at a young age; and were told by most people around them that they would be treated poorly by society because of their skin color; it's easy to see how it can be difficult being Black in America. Because even if none of that is true for them, many people may judge them based on that possibility.

So how can this be resolved? After all, we're all Americans. This shouldn't be so difficult. Culture or sub-culture differences exist primarily because of segregation, whether voluntary or involuntary. I believe they key is education and opportunity. I think we need to rethink the education system entirely. Kids are kids, regardless of who their parents are or where they are born. If we can fund all the schools better, and come up with a National curriculum so that every child receives the same standard of education, regardless of where in the country they live, we can being to close the divide. These children - all of them - are the next generation. We should want them all to grow up well educated, because they're the future of the Nation. That won't fix everything but it's a good first step. And it doesn't just benefit one race, it benefits everyone.
 

Magnum

Well-known member
Though I suppose we could argue that even for a white person to think "Oh, this person is Black, I better be extra nice so I don't come off as being racist" and then do just that, this in itself could be considered somewhat racist.
Yep, everyone should be treated equally.


not all the BLM protesters are involved in criminal activit
But they condone it by not condemning it. Any organization that expects to be treated as legitimate can't stand by while people identified as members of their group (correctly or not) cause such destruction and terror. But there gas been no such statement that I've seen, just that property is less important than lives, which everyone should agree with but let's not minimize people's life work and means of living as nothing.




The unfortunate truth is that racism isn't about skin color.
For many it is, they don't need to know the person. Racism is ignorance and ignorant people don't make the best choices. Real racists don't care about a person's character or perceived up bringing , it's just about someone being different.


So how can this be resolved?
Certainly not through threats and violence but that's the route it seems they've chosen.
If we can fund all the schools better, and come up with a National curriculum so that every child receives the same standard of education, regardless of where in the country they live, we can being to close the divide.
Absolutely , but the schools need to have the politics removed. A teacher that preaches left wing propaganda (which is exceedingly common) is using the education system to drive youth towards what they think is right, even if it morally is not.


But first off recognize that bias may not be racial but cultural.
Sure, but then it's not racism anymore. Lots of white people look down on "trailer trash" or uneducated people of their own race. Same as some black folks look down on conservative black people as "uncle toms" . It's not right but there's such a range of bias that it could never be summed up. Cultural discrimination by people of the same or different races is ugly and usually comes from ignorance. I can say that I've been on the receiving end of cultural bias, when I moved to rural east TN from the Chicago area the local people mostly avoided me and the ones who did interact with me made it plain that they don't like Yankees and that I didn't even need to open my mouth for them to know I wasn't from there . I even had an officer responding to a car accident that I was involved with place all the blame on me even though it clearly wasn't the case , it wasn't racism , he was just a backwoods ignorant hick (my own bias). It goes both ways most of the time I think.

This is the type of conversation I was hoping for. Some way to have an honest conversation in these times where everything and everyone is triggered by nothing.
Thanks
 
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