George Floyd Thing

[Good Ol' Boy]

So I'm one to always wait for facts. I keep seeing everywhere the few minutes of video of a cop with his knee on this guy but does ANYONE actually know what precipitated that?

If the cop was just doing it for no reason then obviously its terrible. But I've seen enough police videos over the last decade to know that what's often publicized by the MSM is a lot of times the tail end of an event.

Is there any info or better yet video of what led up to what happend?

 

[WrongHanded]

If you can get through the first minute or two, this video has a pretty detailed account.

 

[Magnum]

The dumb part is that no one is claiming the officer is in the right, so protests are pointless to me. I could see if there were people defending the actions of the officer, but they're not. The officers are fired and charged, I could see outrage if there was no action taken but that not what happened. Everyone deserves justice and the individual who made a bad desicion that day will face the court to answer for his crime. An excuse to loot and riot is all I'm seeing .

 

[WrongHanded]

The dumb part is that no one is claiming the officer is in the right, so protests are pointless to me. I could see if there were people defending the actions of the officer, but they're not. The officers are fired and charged, I could see outrage if there was no action taken but that not what happened. Everyone deserves justice and the individual who made a bad desicion that day will face the court to answer for his crime. An excuse to loot and riot is all I'm seeing .

When they began protesting, none of the officers had been charged. It was only yesterday that the other 3 were finally charged and taken into custody.

I think this was just one of those straws. There are a lot of reports of black people being abused, assaulted, or wrongfully killed by law enforcement agencies all over the country. And black people are really frustrated about it because it keeps happening. I understand that sometimes the officers in question suffer some consequences, but a lot of them seem not to. And if they end up getting fired, they just move to another department where the slate is wiped clean.

So yeah, they're upset. And they're protesting because there's not much else they can do. Unfortunately, a small minority are rioting and looting. Antifa has also infiltrate some of the protests and are ensighting these things, or just doing them themselves. I've seen a lot of news footage of very white people vandalizing property in what appears to be an otherwise lawful protest.

So are police departments around the country protecting racist officers who victimize black people? Are those officers learning such actions are acceptable from other officers already established in those departments? Is there a culture of quiet racism in certain police departments around the country?

I don't know. But a lot of people seem to think so, and that's why they're protesting. It really doesn't affect me, but I can understand it. I can also understand that just because someone suffers at the hands of the police and happens to be black, does not mean it is racially motivated. Sometimes people who commit crimes try very hard not to be arrested. So, the lines are pretty blurry.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

If you can get through the first minute or two, this video has a pretty detailed account.

That certainly shows more than the MSM is.

However, it appears theres still more we dont know, as the video itself indicates.

What we DO know is that the corpse of Floyd was found to have fentanyl, meth and Covid. He also had the underlying symptom of heart disease.

So we dont know exactly what happened in the SUV where Floyd was detained.

It does SEEM that the use of force was excessive by the officer, being that we dont know all of the facts.

Ultimately we'll have to wait for the courts to rule on this, obviously. But the video Wronghanded posted certainly adds more to the case than what the MSM is showing.

 

[edwardware]

There are a lot of reports of black people being abused, assaulted, or wrongfully killed by law enforcement agencies all over the country.

No, in fact, there aren't "a lot". What there is a lot of focus to the exclusion of statistics. You can tell that's what's happening when you hear the phrase "lived experience"; that's what someone says when they're about to ignore statistical data in favor of an anecdote that they prefer.

Normalized by the arrest rate, black men are killed less often during detention or arrest than white men, and it turns out that if you differentiate down to incidents involving caucasian officers and black subjects, the rate is even lower. WSJ had a good summary on their editorial page (Heather Mac Donald) recently if you're interested.

What there certainly is is a great deal of profiling of young black men (traffic stops, frisks, etc). This is unfortunate and unfair, but probably unavoidable in the context of a country where black people are ~13% of the population and >50% of convicted murderers. A tiny slice of that 13% voluntarily engages in criminal behaviour that imposes an enormously huge societal cost on everyone who looks like them; there's an injustice we can protest!

So, we have a black man murdered by a cop: protests make sense, lobbying to end Qualified Immunity makes more sense. Lobbying to outlaw Public Service Unions that insulate well-documented abusive cops from consequences would be outstanding!

Rioting, arson, and murder, based on a demonstrably false narrative of widespread state-condoned racial murder does not make sense.

 

[WrongHanded]

No, in fact, there aren't "a lot". What there is a lot of focus to the exclusion of statistics.

The statistics for deaths may be relatively accurate, but statistic for abuse and assault are a lot less likely to be even close. Because the person victimized can walk away from it, and may not report it at all, feeling it won't make a difference.

Anyway, you want to argue with someone about what "a lot" is, you can do that. But not with me. Because it doesn't really matter. These protesters think there are "a lot". They think this is going on. And they're upset about it.

 

[edwardware]

Because it doesn't really matter. These protesters think there are "a lot". They think this is going on. And they're upset about it.

If you're making the case that the protesters passionately believe in their position, we agree

If you're making the case that their passion provides some sort of support for the verity of their position, you are wrong.

Believing a lie with all you might leaves you believing a lie, no more.

As Clemens noted, "It ain't so much the things that people don't know that makes trouble in this world, as it is the things that people know that ain't so."

 

[WrongHanded]

If you're making the case that the protesters passionately believe in their position, we agree

If you're making the case that their passion provides some sort of support for the verity of their position, you are wrong.

Believing a lie with all you might leaves you believing a lie, no more.

As Clemens noted, "It ain't so much the things that people don't know that makes trouble in this world, as it is the things that people know that ain't so."

Yeah, I'm saying they passionately believe in their position. And I think were someone to introduce them to the statistics of which you speak, it wouldn't matter because they either wouldn't believe it, or they would switch focus to other issues that disproportionately affect them.

 

[Magnum]

The part of these protests that I just don't understand is that nobody disagrees that police brutality or excessive force is bad. Black, white, whatever, no one is patting the officers involved on the back telling them they did a good job. Clearly they did a reckless and improper job of arresting Mr. floyd, they are in jail and have lost their jobs , families , everything. Even if they were to be found not guilty, their lives are ruined. To me that doesn't sound like they've done something society accepts, no one sees what happened as normal or accepted. So who or what is being protested against? A policy that doesn't exist ?

I feel for the family's of everyone affected with this incident , sad stuff. But raising awareness for an issue that hard statistics don't support is bs. Tearing up the town and trying to make white people bow down and apologize for the sins of their great grandfathers is nonsense. I'm a second generation American , my family came to the U.S. around the turn of the century . we never owned slaves, in fact back then Italian immigrants were treated like dirt. So I'm not going to apologize to anyone for what they have been told is being done to them.
Yes, I care about the lives of my fellow Americans but I don't see any evidence of blatant discrimination or condoned violence of minorities by the police, the numbers don't support it either.

I may be on a bit of a conspiracy kick, but does anyone think this may be a convenient diversion / distraction from other things going on right now?

 

[WrongHanded]

The part of these protests that I just don't understand is that nobody disagrees that police brutality or excessive force is bad. Black, white, whatever, no one is patting the officers involved on the back telling them they did a good job. Clearly they did a reckless and improper job of arresting Mr. floyd, they are in jail and have lost their jobs , families , everything. Even if they were to be found not guilty, their lives are ruined. To me that doesn't sound like they've done something society accepts, no one sees what happened as normal or accepted. So who or what is being protested against? A policy that doesn't exist ?

I feel for the family's of everyone affected with this incident , sad stuff. But raising awareness for an issue that hard statistics don't support is bs. Tearing up the town and trying to make white people bow down and apologize for the sins of their great grandfathers is nonsense. I'm a second generation American , my family came to the U.S. around the turn of the century . we never owned slaves, in fact back then Italian immigrants were treated like dirt. So I'm not going to apologize to anyone for what they have been told is being done to them.
Yes, I care about the lives of my fellow Americans but I don't see any evidence of blatant discrimination or condoned violence of minorities by the police, the numbers don't support it either.

I may be on a bit of a conspiracy kick, but does anyone think this may be a convenient diversion / distraction from other things going on right now?

Yeah, no one is openly supporting what those officers did. Although some politicians are saying a greater number of appeasing words more frequently than others. I think part of the issues is most if not all of the protestors believe there is something the government can do, some law that can be written, that will somehow ensure events like that one don't continue to happen. Maybe there is.

It's hard to understand where they're coming from. I've had to really engage my empathy and imagination, because I simply don't know what it's like to be a victim of racism, live in a truly bad neighborhood, or deal with rough and aggressive police officers. And the claim of course, is that many of them do have to live with those things. But there's history to go with all of these protests. The death of George Floyd wasn't an isolated event. And minority groups who have suffered oppression seem to have a way of holding on to it.

For more perspective on the history, Netflix has a 2017 documentary titled 'LA 92'. It's got some extreme violence in it, going both ways. But as today's emotions can be tied to events from decades ago, or even through generations, it is helpful in better understanding some of the root issues.

But it goes much deeper than police brutality. It's based on inequality. Education, housing, career opportunity, access to healthcare, etc. And whilst those things are largely a result of being poor, they believe they are poor because they are black, and have been held down. In some ways I can see that may be true, and in others I can see it very likely isn't.

People are sometimes ruled by their emotions.

 

[Magnum]

In some ways I can see that may be true, and in others I can see it very likely isn't.

I understand that part . the thing that I'm not seeing is any law that draws a difference based on race, except for the laws that are written to the benefit of minorities, which there are many. People of every race battle with poverty and that's sad but the vibe I get is that a special allowance should be made just for minorities , which is wrong. I've lived in Appalachia, I too was terribly poor at the time but 10x better off than some folks I knew. I had a skilled job but drove an old pickup , had no health insurance, barely made enough to survive but didn't expect anyone to provide for me. When I wanted a better life , I had to go get it. And I did.
Claiming society holds minorities down just doesn't seem real to me. We've had a black president, a man from humble beginnings that rose to the highest office on earth, even if he was the most despicable human possible.
I may be a bit cold but I think poverty is a choice. There's never been one single thing given to me for free. I don't think race should be a factor in any of this. Everyone should be treated equally, period. Giving a job or special treatment to a minority based strictly on their race over a more qualified candidate not only harms the company but the individual too as there is no benefit to excel in their position.
Another problem is the protesters saying "white people do (-fill in the blank) , that is racist- generalizing an entire race by what someone assumes to be true of them. Sure, black lives matter but so do everyone else's. The world is an ugly place, no one should expect to be treated differently but everyone should expect to be treated fairly.
Using mr. Floyd is a poor example of oppression, the guy hanging around (allegedly) using counterfeit money on meth & fentanyl- the guy sounded like a model citizen... That shouldn't condemn him to death by the police , but he shouldn't be held up as a great guy that didn't do anything wrong. My opinion of crime and punishment is direct , if you're found guilty of murder, you should be executed. If you steal something, you should be made to pay 10x the items value as restitution. No housing criminals for decades and hoping they get better in prison. But that's a bit off topic.

 

[WrongHanded]

I understand that part . the thing that I'm not seeing is any law that draws a difference based on race, except for the laws that are written to the benefit of minorities, which there are many. People of every race battle with poverty and that's sad but the vibe I get is that a special allowance should be made just for minorities , which is wrong. I've lived in Appalachia, I too was terribly poor at the time but 10x better off than some folks I knew. I had a skilled job but drove an old pickup , had no health insurance, barely made enough to survive but didn't expect anyone to provide for me. When I wanted a better life , I had to go get it. And I did.
Claiming society holds minorities down just doesn't seem real to me. We've had a black president, a man from humble beginnings that rose to the highest office on earth, even if he was the most despicable human possible.
I may be a bit cold but I think poverty is a choice. There's never been one single thing given to me for free. I don't think race should be a factor in any of this. Everyone should be treated equally, period. Giving a job or special treatment to a minority based strictly on their race over a more qualified candidate not only harms the company but the individual too as there is no benefit to excel in their position.
Another problem is the protesters saying "white people do (-fill in the blank) , that is racist- generalizing an entire race by what someone assumes to be true of them. Sure, black lives matter but so do everyone else's. The world is an ugly place, no one should expect to be treated differently but everyone should expect to be treated fairly.
Using mr. Floyd is a poor example of oppression, the guy hanging around (allegedly) using counterfeit money on meth & fentanyl- the guy sounded like a model citizen... That shouldn't condemn him to death by the police , but he shouldn't be held up as a great guy that didn't do anything wrong. My opinion of crime and punishment is direct , if you're found guilty of murder, you should be executed. If you steal something, you should be made to pay 10x the items value as restitution. No housing criminals for decades and hoping they get better in prison. But that's a bit off topic.

I don't disagree with any of what you said here. I too believe people can achieve a lot when they actually try. And there are quite a few successful black people out there who say just that. But if you're white and you say it, you'll be labeled as a racist who doesn't understand and needs to "check their privilege".

It's hard to prove to a black community that their situation is not soley due to racism. Because racism has effected some of them badly, and most to at least some degree. And they already believe racism is the reason for their circumstances. It's kind of like explaining to someone that just because the MSM spins the truth or omits details and misleads people about some things, doesn't mean everything they report is a complete fabrication. Once an entity is labeled and demonized, it's hard to undo that. And if that group is not even open to listening, it's impossible.

But the real problem is that they do have some legitimate issues (to which racism could play a part). And what responsibility the rest of the country has for those things, is largely an ideological question.

Personally, I feel that if the government can identify the problems, and write legislation to address them, it could solve those issue for people of all races. Education funding and standards being a prime example.

 

[BWS]

Do a little reading on Clinton and Biden's '94 crime bill(stop and frisk).... and then do the math on the time vs today's crop of police officers training.

One one hand,killing Floyd does society a favor..... but weeding out corruption within policing efforts based on above paragraph isn't newsworthy? Or is somehow cop hating? Which is no different than pulling a race card. I can't say n...er and can't say anything negative about policemen?

Dang interesting if you axt me. Look up,"policing for profit" sometime too.

 

[.44 Associate]

As a white guy I can't know what it is like to be black in America.

I have talked with black folks who tell me there really is a lot of racism out there, and that it has materially affected them. I also have talked with black folks who say they feel like they are getting pretty much the same shake as everyone else. I really don't know what to think of all that.

I have worked with blacks who were lazy and stupid and who blamed their lack of success on racism. I also have worked with blacks who were better men than me in just about every conceivable way and deserved every bit of their success.

So I tend to think that racism exists, but probably is not "everywhere" as so many people seem to believe.

I'm bothered that it is essentially impossible to have any sort of reasoned discussion on race in America. We are so tribal now that we aren't really thinking, let alone listening. We are just defending our tribal allegiances, come hell or high water.

 

[.44 Associate]

Now, with regard to this particular incident...

I don't see how the cop's actions can possibly be justified. His job was to aprehend the suspect and get him into custody. He screwed that up about as badly as a thing can be screwed up, and he deserves to be in jail and facing a murder charge.

The dead guy, though, was obviously a real piece of work. I have a really hard time with people lionizing a violent felon - but I also find that that sort of thing is fundamental to BLM and their followers. The narrative that evil racist cops are indiscriminately killing poor innocent black folk almost totally breaks down when you really look into it.

In my opinion, policing has become too aggressive and too militarized. I think a serious discussion needs to be had about cops being essentially an "occupying force" which views the citizenry as subjects to be kept in line. (I've overstated that, but I'm drunk and I've been reading WaPo again.)

That discussion seems very unlikely, though, especially in today's climate where the grown-ups are ignored in favor of the very dumbest statements (and reactions, and reactions to reactions, and on and on and on) from people who think Twitter is the center of political life.

 

[Ironicaintit]

There’s no excuse for a knee on the neck of a man who’s already cuffed, IMO.
even if he were still acting belligerently, there are other avenues.

once detained by police, isn’t it their duty to protect the suspect?

 

[Grunt]

As a white guy I can't know what it is like to be black in America.

I have talked with black folks who tell me there really is a lot of racism out there, and that it has materially affected them. I also have talked with black folks who say they feel like they are getting pretty much the same shake as everyone else. I really don't know what to think of all that.

I have worked with blacks who were lazy and stupid and who blamed their lack of success on racism. I also have worked with blacks who were better men than me in just about every conceivable way and deserved every bit of their success.

So I tend to think that racism exists, but probably is not "everywhere" as so many people seem to believe.

I'm bothered that it is essentially impossible to have any sort of reasoned discussion on race in America. We are so tribal now that we aren't really thinking, let alone listening. We are just defending our tribal allegiances, come hell or high water.

Some of the most racist people you'll ever meet are Liberals. Second is those who espouse the BLM movement. The Left/Liberals NEED the specter of racism to control their voter base.

 

[edwardware]

There’s no excuse for a knee on the neck of a man who’s already cuffed, IMO.

Everyone, to within a rounding error of 100%, agrees with you, barring a few Nazi prison gangs and the ten Klansmen hiding in a swamp somewhere. No one condones police brutality.

. . .but that's not the question at hand. The question is whether or not we fall for a completely fabricated narrative of widespread institutional racism and identitarian guilt that is supported solely by the vitriol of its advocates, without an observable fact in sight.

 

[WrongHanded]

. . .but that's not the question at hand. The question is whether or not we fall for a completely fabricated narrative of widespread institutional racism and identitarian guilt that is supported solely by the vitriol of its advocates, without an observable fact in sight.

Another question would be, what are the viable alternatives?

It's not so much a question of "falling for" anything. You've got a whole lot of people who passionately believe 'X'. They want to abolish the police, etc etc.

They will end up settling for a light restructuring, along with some extra community support initiatives, some new regulations, and some federal oversights. And that's not going to hurt anyone or anything.

If the claim of systemic racism gains steam, perhaps we will need to see improvements in education and other areas. Which will help out a whole bunch of poor people regardless of their skin color. Again, not a big deal.

And we don't need to worry about who's going to pay the cost. We're the richest country in the world, run a deficit in federal spending every years, and we use a fiat currency. I'm sure it'll be fine.