Time to call it quits?

The United States: Salvageable or Too Far Gone?

  • Our nation is strong, we will get through this together and work past our differences.

    Votes: 10 55.6%
  • Our divisions are too deep, best to dissolve the Union peacefully while we still can.

    Votes: 8 44.4%

  • Total voters
    18

Howland937

Active member
Mountains out of molehills.

I didn't realize until Covid happened, how important spectator sports are to keeping the population focused on an inconsequential and artificially created conflict.
I could have told you if you'd asked. People need an outlet for their emotions, and watching your favorite team in a big game (especially in a bitter rivalry) can pretty well hit on every emotion known to human-kind.

Trump thought his rallies were big. Check out some footage of celebration parades/riots after a College football or basketball National Championship.
 
Last edited:
Mountains out of molehills.

I didn't realize until Covid happened, how important spectator sports are to keeping the population focused on an inconsequential and artificially created conflict.
The problem is that politics is the new spectator sport. Many people put even less thought into it than their choice of favorite football team and fail to realize the repercussions last beyond election day.
 

roscoe

Active member
Ultimately, the premise of this thread is a bit off. For there to be a separation, there must be geographically-based division, with deep cultural cohesion, as in the former Yugoslavia or the former USSR, or former Czechoslovakia. The US is not like that. Even Texas, the one folks always talk about, is only 52%-46% Republican. There is no 'confederacy' that would be able to pull away.

People are just going to have to learn to live together.
 
This is ridiculous. There will not be another Civil War, there will be no dissolution of the Union. Where would the boundaries and battle lines be? What would be the sides? And what would be the reason for it?
 

NIGHTLORD40K

Active member
This is ridiculous. There will not be another Civil War, there will be no dissolution of the Union. Where would the boundaries and battle lines be? What would be the sides? And what would be the reason for it?
The rational is that half the country is only grudgingly living under the dicta of the other. We lack the common cultural values to form any basis for compromise and the divisions will only get worse. It would be better to dissolve the Union peacefully and negotiate the formation of 3-5 new regional nation-states than allow the bile to fester and lead to more violence.

The civil cold war has already been upon us for some time, and the last year has seen it erupt into scattered pockets of open revolt on both sides. I do not see this trend reversing, Biden's hollow calls for submission, err, unity, not withstanding.

It could be done. Think more Ireland than Yugoslavia, The breakup of the British Empire, or even the formation of the European Union. A common economic bloc could be formed without social authority over the member states. Defense pacts and trade agreements could be made- but each successor nation would have a chance to write a new charter better defining and supporting of the cultural morae of its inhabitants.

America is no more. It was fun while it lasted, but history shows that nations are only temporary social contracts between peoples. Once those people form new and distinct cultures and value structures, the nation cannot long endure- they all fall eventually.

With a little foresight, bravery, and effort, we could avoid much future choas and bloodshed. But its probably not going to happen that way. The Federal Government will do whatever it needs to to keep the states in line and will never relinquish its power willingly. Unfortunately, history also shows that crackdowns are only temporary solutions as well.......
 

roscoe

Active member
The rational is that half the country is only grudgingly living under the dicta of the other. We lack the common cultural values to form any basis for compromise and the divisions will only get worse. It would be better to dissolve the Union peacefully and negotiate the formation of 3-5 new regional nation-states than allow the bile to fester and lead to more violence.

The civil cold war has already been upon us for some time, and the last year has seen it erupt into scattered pockets of open revolt on both sides. I do not see this trend reversing, Biden's hollow calls for submission, err, unity, not withstanding.

It could be done. Think more Ireland than Yugoslavia, The breakup of the British Empire, or even the formation of the European Union. A common economic bloc could be formed without social authority over the member states. Defense pacts and trade agreements could be made- but each successor nation would have a chance to write a new charter better defining and supporting of the cultural morae of its inhabitants.

America is no more. It was fun while it lasted, but history shows that nations are only temporary social contracts between peoples. Once those people form new and distinct cultures and value structures, the nation cannot long endure- they all fall eventually.

With a little foresight, bravery, and effort, we could avoid much future choas and bloodshed. But its probably not going to happen that way. The Federal Government will do whatever it needs to to keep the states in line and will never relinquish its power willingly. Unfortunately, history also shows that crackdowns are only temporary solutions as well.......

This is a sad vision, but I think it is only informed by the last 4 years. The USA has had alternating presidents and congresses for more than 50 years; there has never been a time when half the country has somehow been oppressed. Under the thumb in what way? What can you not do today that you could do on January 19? You can say what you want, read what you want, buy whatever land you want, marry whomever you want, move wherever you want, worship however you want, and other than a very few places, buy as many guns as you want. Where is the thumb of government pushing down on people?

In fact, I would argue that there is more freedom now than ever before. When I was very young, Virginia and many other states wouldn't let blacks and whites marry. Up until 2012 laws forbade same-sex marriage. Until the 1980s there was no concealed carry anywhere in the country (unless you were rich). Until the 1970s people could be prevented from buying property because of the color of their skin. Until the 1970s censorship for 'obscenity' was legal. Until just the last few years, women were prevented from combat roles in the military, irrespective of ability.

All of these are freedoms that Americans currently enjoy that they did not have when I was born.
 

NIGHTLORD40K

Active member
About 13% of the population claim they are systemically oppressed and have been since 1865......

Yes, you can say whatever you want- in hushed tones away from any cell phones, lest you be fired/ cancelled.

Yes, you can worship however you want, in places and numbers approved by the state under the guise of "public health."

Yes, you can arm yourself as you wish, well, sorta, and for a little bit longer anyway.

The current national philosophical divide reaches back at least as far as the '60s and has never been satisfactorily addressed- only kicked down the road. Secular communalism masquerading as enlightenment is the new standard being taught in schools, both public and private. Political Correctness is the new religion and all must be sacrificed upon its alter. State and individual rights are antiquated and somehow racist concepts that will be stamped out by the ever-expanding surveillance state of the benevolent Federal Government, supported by the new borgious class of techno-oligarchs. Dont worry, Big Brother is watching and he will take care of you.....and you will be happy- or else.

The Left is always clamoring for rewriting and modernizing the Constitution. Well, with the formation of their very own new nation-states here's the chance to prove their philosophy is superior. Go for it, happy trails- but 74 million of us want no part of it.
 

roscoe

Active member
The current national philosophical divide reaches back at least as far as the '60s and has never been satisfactorily addressed- only kicked down the road. Secular communalism masquerading as enlightenment is the new standard being taught in schools, both public and private.
I think you fundamentally misunderstand the nature of the United States, as founded. It has always been a secular democracy driven by Enlightenment principles. In fact, it was the first secular democracy on Earth and many of the founders were deists or Christians in name only. The Enlightenment was one of the intellectual foundations of the new government.

Many fundamentalists have tried to link the US government with religion, but there is a reason that the first line of the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights expressly forbids any state religion. In fact, in Article V, it states: "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States". That means the founders took extreme pains to separate religion from the government.

More recent fundamentalist reactions to secularism, and attempts to present the US as somehow directly linked to a Christian god, or to link communism to 'godlessness', run directly counter to the founding principles of the country (and are just ignorant of both US and Christian history).
 

Zundfolge

Member
There will be no breakup, no divorce, no dissolving of the Union ... but there will be no return to our constitutional republic either. We're all about to see what Oceania looks like from the inside. Only with a healthy dose of "The Troubles".

As for how divided we are, I don't see how I can go back to happily living side by side with people that called me a fucking Nazi for the last 4 years just because I don't want their communism and degeneracy and am not willing to pay penance for the sins of people that looked vaguely like me 150+ years ago (especially since my ancestors were the ones fighting them to end slavery). And truth is they don't want to make nice and come together with us either (I don't care what Fiat and "The Boss" claim).

Its gonna suck.
 

NIGHTLORD40K

Active member
Bah, this is all just hot air anyway. China already ate our lunch. Nothing now will stand in the way of their ascendence to global hegemony as America sinks deeper and deeper into economic and cultural stagnation. Uncontrolled immigration, lack of trust in our institutions, ever-increasing dependence on government handouts, runaway inflation,. crushing debt, breakdown of family units, rampant drug abuse, crumbling infrastructure, a worn out and rusting military, and schools that teach Political Correctness rather than saleble job skills are a perfect storm for future entry into the 3rd World club.

It doesnt really matter anymore.
 

roscoe

Active member
There will be no breakup, no divorce, no dissolving of the Union ... but there will be no return to our constitutional republic either. We're all about to see what Oceania looks like from the inside. Only with a healthy dose of "The Troubles".

As for how divided we are, I don't see how I can go back to happily living side by side with people that called me a fucking Nazi for the last 4 years just because I don't want their communism and degeneracy and am not willing to pay penance for the sins of people that looked vaguely like me 150+ years ago (especially since my ancestors were the ones fighting them to end slavery). And truth is they don't want to make nice and come together with us either (I don't care what Fiat and "The Boss" claim).

Its gonna suck.

Wow. And they were calling the liberals snowflakes! Accusing people of being degenerate communists will not win you a whole lot of friends. And yeah, the after-effects of slavery, segregation, Jim Crow, lynchings, and blowing up Black churches are a bitch, and it is America's original sin. You may want to ignore the past, but you do so at your own peril. America has never really squared with it, so it has festered. But welcome to the real world.
 

roscoe

Active member
Bah, this is all just hot air anyway. China already ate our lunch. Nothing now will stand in the way of their ascendence to global hegemony as America sinks deeper and deeper into economic and cultural stagnation. Uncontrolled immigration, lack of trust in our institutions, ever-increasing dependence on government handouts, runaway inflation,. crushing debt, breakdown of family units, rampant drug abuse, crumbling infrastructure, a worn out and rusting military, and schools that teach Political Correctness rather than saleble job skills are a perfect storm for future entry into the 3rd World club.

It doesnt really matter anymore.
Well, I agree about China, because everybody shops at WalMart for the cheapest big-screen televisions and latest smartphone. But they have a long way to go.

And you exaggerate our demise. Our military is larger than the next 7 countries' combined. Just as a comparison, prior to WWII, in 'the good old days' (as my Mom likes to call them), our military was 19th in the world by size/money, etc, yet our economy was still larger than all of Europe + Africa + Latin America+ Asia combined. Maybe we don't need to support a giant military to have a well-educated, healthy, economically-sound population. Just a thought.

1612851654322.png
 
Last edited:

theotherwaldo

Well-known member
The primary factor that is pushing us toward civil war is undiluted democracy.
Pure democracy translates into 'who gets thrown off of the island today', 'who should we silence now', 'who should be robbed of all that they possess - for social justice'.
Pure majority rule is equal to mob rule,
It's the most dangerous and addictive drug... .
 
Top