The Two Party Picnic

The Two Party system as it stands, is bad. I have an analogy for the problem.

You're going on a political picnic. You get to choose which party you go with. But you must eat every policy in their basket, no matter how bad it tastes to you.

Say what you will, but I have a few firm and unwavering beliefs:

• The Republicans and Democrats do NOT want to share power with any other parties, regardless of how We feel about that.

• They will take an opportunity to "prove" to the us that the other party is crooked, corrupt, and just plain bad.

• Neither care about what we want all that much, because they feel they know what we need better than we do. They only care about convincing us that they "really" do, long enough to get our votes.

I think that a Two Party System can work. But only if we all get a say in who is nominated in each party. And it can work as simply as this:

Anyone not registered as affiliated with any party, can vote in all party primaries. It's that easy.

This means anyone who really wants a say will either remain or become unaffiliated, so that they can make the biggest difference. Then you can vote for the most reasonable people running for each party. Or you can vote for the worst candidate in the party you don't like. Or you can vote for the least electable but most popular fringe candidate running for the party you don't want to win, and increase you candidates chances. And everyone else can choose that for themselves.

Now, what do you think about that? And why?
 

George P

Well-known member
As a Libertarian, I would love to see those two parties completely dismantled and go away. I think we need multiple parties where they stand for only their core belief, whether that is Socialism, anit-abortion, tree-huggers, pro business, or whatever. This would especially be necessary for Congress and the Senate; then folks would have to compromise on things in order to get things done in a ,ore efficient manner. Let me play God for a day and I would institute term limits, as in one term for each side of Congress, 2 for POTUS, and change the House so that each state gets 5 reps each so no one state can control things. There would also be no life time appointments to the bench - 10 years max and no legislating from the bench. No elected Pol or judge could serve beyond 75 years of age.
Then I'd start on dismantling most of the fed government, pushing every social issue back to the States, where they belong, dump the surrent tax code, and on and on..........
 
I appreciate what you're saying, @George P .

I dabbled with Libertarianism, but ultimately decided I was too ignorant on the functioning of our society, economy, and the laws holding it all together to continue to advocate for tearing it apart. I'm also very scared of the potential power of corporations, and would prefer not to give them free reign.

However, I do believe our system of governance is a good one. I simply believe it has been hijacked by the two major parties, and feel that if We The People had more say over the selection of all the nominees, perhaps we'd find some moderation, and with it some common sense. I also believe such a change to our political selection process would open the door to a multi party system.

As I see it, compromise is the only rational solution to the division in this country. And I believe that division has been caused by both Republicans and Democrats, with the big helping hand of the internet and social media.
 

George P

Well-known member
Except, to the Left, their form of compromise is WE have to give in and give up things while they do not - typical Soviet-style negotiating tactics; there can NEVER be a "win-win" with them. They have to win and we have to lose.

Hate to say it,m but after this little demonstration of tyranny by the leftist governors, IMO, this country is done as a Republic. Maybe not today, but very shortly, especially if they gain control of the Congress and POTUS
 
I'm not going to defend the left (or the right, for that matter) when it comes to generalizations. I agree with certain things on either side of the isle, and I believe both sides play stupid games to try and further their agendas. And really, that's the problem. They can't ever be honest, up front, and just deal with the issue at hand.
 

Spats McGee

New member
The Two Party system as it stands, is bad. I have an analogy for the problem.

You're going on a political picnic. You get to choose which party you go with. But you must eat every policy in their basket, no matter how bad it tastes to you.

Say what you will, but I have a few firm and unwavering beliefs:

• The Republicans and Democrats do NOT want to share power with any other parties, regardless of how We feel about that.....
This has been my problem with the two major parties for several decades now. They have effectively 'carved up the political pie' into 2 pieces and no other party has any reasonable chance of getting a slice. Unfortunately, that forces a lot of groups to choose one or the other, even if they don't really like either one.
 

Ed Ames

Member
“Complaints are everywhere heard from our most considerate and virtuous citizens, equally the friends of public and private faith, and of public and personal liberty, that our governments are too unstable, that the public good is disregarded in the conflicts of rival parties, and that measures are too often decided, not according to the rules of justice and the rights of the minor party, but by the superior force of an interested and overbearing majority. However anxiously we may wish that these complaints had no foundation, the evidence, of known facts will not permit us to deny that they are in some degree true. It will be found, indeed, on a candid review of our situation, that some of the distresses under which we labor have been erroneously charged on the operation of our governments; but it will be found, at the same time, that other causes will not alone account for many of our heaviest misfortunes; and, particularly, for that prevailing and increasing distrust of public engagements, and alarm for private rights, which are echoed from one end of the continent to the other. These must be chiefly, if not wholly, effects of the unsteadiness and injustice with which a factious spirit has tainted our public administrations.”
- Federalist Papers No. 10, November 22, 1787, James Madison.

That’s the sad part about all of this. It’s a problem that was recognized when the constitution was being written, and they tried to build in safeguards, but their efforts were circumvented from day 1.

So, yeah, the parties have taken over the picnic and I don’t like what they are serving. I can choose to be independent and that gives me a little bit of say in who will be cooking for each party, but the party still has far more say than I do and I can’t bring in my own chef.

Until people get away from the belief that “voting for a third party is throwing away your vote” we’re stuck with two parties. As long as we’ve got “first past the post” voting, the “throwing away your votes” idea won’t go away. The only way we could get away from that would be moving to a ranked voting system, but that won’t happen as long as the parties have control.

First past the post: Pick one candidate, and whoever gets the most votes wins.

Ranked Voting: Pick your choices in order of preference: So maybe you really want Jo Jorgensen, but if he doesn’t win you’d settle for Biden, and if he doesn’t win you’ll settle for whoever the Republicans end up running, and your last choice is Howie Hawkins.
 

Magnum

Active member
It's too bad that our system has left each side stuck with whatever they get, that's life though. The problem is- we're humans. It's impossible to like everything about everyone, I love my wife but there are certain things I would change if I could. I can't. There will be parts of anything that you would change if you could, life is a compromise. Even your favorite candidate will do things you don't love. Just the way it is. Pick your poison and commit to swallowing it.

I consider myself a Republican. Why? Simple. I value the second amendment above all others as I feel that's what makes our nation free and taxes. I support a lot of the business & economic policy of Republicans too, can't just print money forever and give it away for free- try explaining that to a Democrat ....i also don't think killing millions of unborn children is a good thing, to me it's unbelievably cruel and savage. I don't think there are any prominent democrats left that feel they can try to defend the unborn, if there are then I bet they get a lot of hell from the mob of angry purple haired unicorns (or however they identify on any given day). I also don't think one cent of aid should go to a foreign government unless they've done something for us, we have a massive deficit - why the hell should we pay for a bunch of people who don't even care for us, it's nonsense . I think the welfare in our country is out of control, I agree with help for folks who are disabled , old, ECT (people who legitimately cannot provide for themselves) but if you're 25 years old, able bodied and fit for work - you deserve no welfare, most I could see is a box of simple nutritious food dropped off once a week - and nothing more from the government. Private charity can provide anything else if they wish.

Other than those things, I really just swallow the rest. So there is no chance I could ever vote democrat and sorry to say it but I do believe a 3rd party vote is wasted unless there is a candidate who has at least 5% support, less than that it isn't even a blip. I know my way of thinking is why there are no other parties but I require results for my vote, every election us important and I just can't bring myself to flush my voice down the toilet. Maybe I'm small minded , narrow visioned, obtuse - call me whatever, I have young children and I want them to have an America left by the time they're old enough to recognize it. Not a communist garbage fire with bread lines and cat soup and a 2 year wait to see a government salary doctor for the bullet wound you picked up in democrat paradise mad Max land. Didn't we used to capture commies as enemies ? Now they're blatantly open about being commies and they're celebrated. Ugh, demonrats.
 

Ed Ames

Member
Magnum,

There are a few problems with your position as it relates to this thread.

The first is the one we’re all likely to experience next year. Odds are, the Republicans will lose the White House and quite possibly the senate. You’ll end up in the minority position (just like me, wheee), and then we go back to that Monroe quote I posted. To paraphrase, your views will be ignored and you’ll be left complaining ineffectually about the injustice of it all. There goes our guns.

On the bright side, abortions will decline. One of the things it’s easy to forget when you are passionate about a subject is that humans are complicated and sometimes trying to force your ideals on other people results in paradoxical effect. In other words, banning abortions increases the number of abortions, just like banning drugs has lead to an increase in drug use. Abortions are actually more common in places where they are more restricted. Source: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(20)30315-6/fulltext

What we probably won’t see is the important changes that we need, like reduced restrictions on guns, walking back of the drug war, reduced crony capitalism, demilitarized police, and so on. You’ll get what you say you want but it won’t be in the way you want it so you’ll be unhappy, I’ll be unhappy, everyone except the party insiders of the winning party will be unhappy.
 

Alexx1401

New member
Sadly this system works. I LONG ago gave up on the GOP. The problem of course is in many elections where I live there is not even a person in that party to choose from anyway. So I vote for the most conservative one that has a real shot. Sadly what this does is many use it as an excuse to not vote at all, saying it does not matter, or they write in something that will never win. So the worst possible one wins. Even in party, like the GOP there is seldom if ever a perfect choice. So I will pick the best one who has a real shot. Many scream for some flavor of Socialism right up until they get it. We see several large cities now that have had it for a while and they are sewers. Those in power are VERY well off, most are stepped on. So they vote for the same people who made the mess to clean it up. Then of course blame people who are not in power where they live for the mess where they live. It really is a mental disorder. Do the same thing over and over and expect a different result. :(
 

Magnum

Active member
Odds are, the Republicans will lose the White House and quite possibly the senate.
I don't see that happening. Trump is easily the best president since Reagan and everyone knows it, that's why they hate him so much, he's effective and not afraid.


On the bright side, abortions will decline.
Not if any leftys have their way. They want abortion in demand up to birth and sometimes after.


What we probably won’t see is the important changes that we need, like reduced restrictions on guns, walking back of the drug war, reduced crony capitalism, demilitarized police, and so on.
I doubt we'll see relief on gun restrictions but as long as they aren't adding more I see that as being as good as we can hope. The drug war is another story, liberal cities handing out needles and safe places for fiends to get wasted isn't the answer and it's turned those places into cesspools of crime and despair, I agree with marijuana legalization (even though I don't touch the stuff) , there's no sense in locking up some stoner kid- we need our resources for other things. Heroin , meth, crack and all the things people will kill to get $5 for need to be illegal. Hardly anyone gets killed for a bag of weed and shutting off gangs funding through TIGHTER restrictions on the hard stuff should happen. Stop the drugs and that stops the money, the gangs go out of business and the streets are safer.
The police need to be militarized, they must be armed at least as well as the thugs they attempt to arrest, can't really show up to a gang hideout and ask politely if they'd come out and turn themselves in. That's not reality, every year violence escalates and the police need the means to respond. I live outside of Chicago AKA chi-raq, it's bad. There are areas I wouldn't drive through let alone walk through and those areas need police more than anywhere else , take away their means to dominate the situation and you've signed their death warrant. Just the way it is. If you have a better idea maybe you can share it but from where I'm sitting force must be met with greater force.
I’ll be unhappy, everyone except the party insiders of the winning party will be unhappy.
I'll be happy if we get 4 more years of trump, hold the Senate and regain the house. That would make me as satisfied as I'll ever get with our current political environment . the left has just pushed the radical thing too far. I'm fine if a lefty wants to try to push universal healthcare, free college and whatever else the people who don't understand how money works want. I don't agree but let them want free stuff. I don't agree with anarchy, communism and all that crap.
 

Ed Ames

Member
Not if any leftys have their way. They want abortion in demand up to birth and sometimes after.
Is your goal to reduce the actual number of abortions?

If you want to reduce the actual number of abortions, banning abortions isn’t the way to accomplish your goal. The way to accomplish your goal is to address the conditions that lead to abortions. Most abortions are caused by people who lack access to birth control and are unable for socioeconomic reasons to support a child. They end up pregnant and their choice is to terminate the pregnancy or have their future ruined. That’s why abortions continue even when they are illegal, and why they drop when wealth increases...better access to birth control means fewer unplanned pregnancies, and reducing the hardships reduces the need to abort the few unplanned pregnancies that happen anyway. Social stigmas are also a big factor...to reduce abortions you also need to remove the stigma of being an unwed mother, to reduce the social costs of carrying unplanned pregnancies to term. Do all of that and you can make abortions free for everyone who wants them and you’ll still have fewer abortions than we have now. That’s not just speculation, people have researched the results of those laws. In my previous reply I posted a link to a study on the subject.

Of course none of that matters if your actual objective is control, and abortion laws are just a means to an end.

...Heroin , meth, crack and all the things people will kill to get $5 for need to be illegal. Hardly anyone gets killed for a bag of weed and shutting off gangs funding through TIGHTER restrictions on the hard stuff should happen. Stop the drugs and that stops the money, the gangs go out of business and the streets are safer.
The police need to be militarized, they must be armed at least as well as the thugs they attempt to arrest, can't really show up to a gang hideout and ask politely if they'd come out and turn themselves in. That's not reality, every year violence escalates and the police need the means to respond. I live outside of Chicago AKA chi-raq, it's bad. There are areas I wouldn't drive through let alone walk through and those areas need police more than anywhere else , take away their means to dominate the situation and you've signed their death warrant. Just the way it is. If you have a better idea maybe you can share it but from where I'm sitting force must be met with greater force.
This is another case of the desire for control driving you to losing your nominal goal. You don’t have control. No amount of effort will ever get you control. Why? Because you are dealing with humans and humans don’t like being pushed around. They do what they want, despite your objections, and if you keep pushing, eventually they fight back. The police are demonstrating right now what happens when they try to dominate US citizens on a large scale: riots and chaos, and push back both political and literal. The fact that middle aged women and military vets are lining up to fight federal police should give you a sign that this isn’t going to end well for the “dominate” side. Those people are may go to jail, but they are also influencing voters...and more voters sympathize with unarmed middle aged women than with - to borrow a phrase from the NRA - jackboot thugs.

I'll be happy if we get 4 more years of trump, hold the Senate and regain the house.
Won’t happen. Best case you’ll keep the senate, and Trump will accept defeat and leave office. More
Likely, you’ll keep the senate, Trump will claim the election was fraudulent, and we’ll have a little bit of a civil “disturbance” (which might just qualify as a civil war) that ends with Trump removed, and if that happens don’t count on keeping anything including the US as you know it. The authors of the constitution anticipated a lot of problems but they didn’t anticipate a president deciding to claim that the election was invalid and jerking things around. That path includes a real possibility of the US having its own version of what the Russians experienced in 1993. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Russian_constitutional_crisis

That’s the problem with playing games with this stuff. You think you are gaining control, but people don’t agree with your controls, and so you try to dominate, and people still don’t agree, so you try to super dominate. Eventually people get tired of it and - if you are lucky - the fact that there is a political process to stop your efforts saves your life.
 

Alexx1401

New member
I don't see that happening. Trump is easily the best president since Reagan and everyone knows it, that's why they hate him so much, he's effective and not afraid.



Not if any leftys have their way. They want abortion in demand up to birth and sometimes after.



I doubt we'll see relief on gun restrictions but as long as they aren't adding more I see that as being as good as we can hope. The drug war is another story, liberal cities handing out needles and safe places for fiends to get wasted isn't the answer and it's turned those places into cesspools of crime and despair, I agree with marijuana legalization (even though I don't touch the stuff) , there's no sense in locking up some stoner kid- we need our resources for other things. Heroin , meth, crack and all the things people will kill to get $5 for need to be illegal. Hardly anyone gets killed for a bag of weed and shutting off gangs funding through TIGHTER restrictions on the hard stuff should happen. Stop the drugs and that stops the money, the gangs go out of business and the streets are safer.
The police need to be militarized, they must be armed at least as well as the thugs they attempt to arrest, can't really show up to a gang hideout and ask politely if they'd come out and turn themselves in. That's not reality, every year violence escalates and the police need the means to respond. I live outside of Chicago AKA chi-raq, it's bad. There are areas I wouldn't drive through let alone walk through and those areas need police more than anywhere else , take away their means to dominate the situation and you've signed their death warrant. Just the way it is. If you have a better idea maybe you can share it but from where I'm sitting force must be met with greater force.

I'll be happy if we get 4 more years of trump, hold the Senate and regain the house. That would make me as satisfied as I'll ever get with our current political environment . the left has just pushed the radical thing too far. I'm fine if a lefty wants to try to push universal healthcare, free college and whatever else the people who don't understand how money works want. I don't agree but let them want free stuff. I don't agree with anarchy, communism and all that crap.
Don't forget the people telling anyone who will listen that Trump is NEVER going to win again are the same people who up until election night said Hilary was going to win in a Regan like landslide. Ooops. I thought at the time it would be funny as hell to see him win, really had no hope he would or that he would be "good" if he did. Man has he ever shocked me and has it ever been fun to watch the left with a never ending temper tantrum. These riots with the looting and burning is a great example of it. I hope they keep this up till November. After all it's Biden voters who are looting and burning. They could not do a better job of helping Trump win again and take the House back too. Keep it up, the temper tantrum is helping us win again
 

Ed Ames

Member
Don't forget the people telling anyone who will listen that Trump is NEVER going to win again are the same people who up until election night said Hilary was going to win in a Regan like landslide.
Nope. I never thought Hillary had a chance.


Remember, none of these people would be my choice. I don’t like the Democrats, have never wanted one elected. The major parties haven’t had a single presidential candidate that I could vote for, in my entire life.
 
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