WrongHanded
Well-known member
That it's not all about you.
The American Political Divide: What is it?
- Thread starter thegunguy
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X62503
New member
Ah, a diversion. Because, in the end, and in the meanwhile when it comes to certain important matters such as life and death, it IS all about me (and Mrs. X62503).
WrongHanded
Well-known member
It's all about you. Except that you live in this society, and how that society functions or fails to function has more bearing on you and Mrs. X62503 than anything else.
If you want to preserve YOUR way of life, you must take into account the society which provides all that opportunity. You don't do it all on your own, no matter how badly you may want to believe it.
If you haven't read the essay 'I, Pencil' you might want to check it out. Easily found with a Google search.
X62503
New member
WrongHanded, our viewpoints differ because we do not value modern society in the same way or to the same extent. I don't see society as providing much at all, except a strong desire on my part to avoid it. I understand a little of what you say regarding not doing it on my own, however. For example, some people long ago decided to establish a college, and society, likely in some way, had something to do with that success. Society however, had absolutely nothing to do with my choice and drive to attend the college and obtain a degree, which I used to attend additional colleges and obtain additional degrees. These choices were my own, and I paid (am still paying) for them, while Mrs. X62503 worked several jobs in the meantime, so we could eat and pay rent. Now I have a tremendous job that pays me well; despite that, my love of beans and rice for supper has not diminished. We all live and die by our own choices. Others look outwardly for aid and assistance when the going gets rough. Mrs. X62503 and I look inwardly, and find our own solutions to our own problems. In my opinion, the only things that society and I should owe or provide each other are liberty and justice. Some societies are better at providing that than others.
WrongHanded
Well-known member
I understand your point. Please don't think I'm missing it.
Our GDP is approximately 70% consumerism. As far as I can tell, only 1/3rd of the workforce does the essential jobs that keep society functioning. Like it on not, your success, as well as the success of everyone else, hinges on society and the economic opportunity it provides.
So voting for something that directly benefits you but is ultimately detrimental society, may ultimately also be detrimental to your future opportunities. Which is why society as a whole should be considered in voting. This is not to say you should always vote for handouts, but sometimes they can get beneficial. For example, many people are currently out of work and have months of back rent due, with the very real possibility of eviction. If that were to happen on a large scale, it could have long lasting implications to the economy. Bailing them out, in this case, is the wiser choice, in my opinion.
Howland937
Active member
While I agree in principle, there is no reason for unemployment to be at the level it currently is. When people (my brother and his wife for example) collect more money on unemployment with the extra they've been given in covid relief, there's not a lot of motivation to seek employment. I understand some fields have been hit harder than others, but it's impossible to drive through a town of any size and not see countless "now hiring" and "help wanted" signs. Some folks undoubtedly have been negatively affected financially throughout this mess. Some folks have benefitted impressively by sitting on their butts and avoiding work.
WrongHanded
Well-known member
Very true. There has to be a balance. Aid can of course come in many forms, and I don't think an approach as simple as an extra $600 per month (or whatever it is) regardless of previous income, where they live, etcetera, can work effectively. But congress seemed to want something fast and easy, so that's what we got.
And of course, it's a double edged sword. Because whilst it may be crucial to some people making it through the pandemic caused recessions, other are very much taking advantage, and it's hard to find employees for some employers. Unprecedented times.
You have a very depressing vision of society. It has never really been about anything other than the relationships among people. In every successful society, people have needed to make sacrifices for their fellow citizens. Sometimes these sacrifices are major (as in going to war), whereas sometimes they are less so (auto registration taxes). BTW - America ranks very low in terms of things like tax burden, at least among 1st-world countries.
But if you don't like the balance found in the US, and want a more self-centered version, there are countries you can go to. But they are not necessarily very nice places, for those exact reasons.
Anyway, I think we should strive for more, not less. I would argue that many of the greatest things this country (USA) has done were NOT in the name of selfishness:
Civil War to ban slavery
WW2, and then rebuilding Europe after WW2
Developing and giving away the polio vaccine
Putting a man on the moon, and the general cooperation of the space programs.
JohnKSa
Member
If a person thinks they have political views but those views are only about what they are getting out of it, that is inwardly focused. It is not a political view at all, it is just selfishness. It is the natural state of children. Depending on how the selfishness manifests, it can be mistaken for either liberalism or conservatism.X62503 said:
When we grow up and learn that there is more to life than just what we want, than being taken care of, than just our own small part of the world, ONLY then can we form political views.
Political views are outwardly focused. They are the result of mature thought, of concern for something other than ourselves, for more than our own wants, and about more than just being personally taken care of.
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X62503
New member
You are partly correct; my vision of society has become less rose-colored over the past twenty or thirty years.
X62503
New member
Sounds like Star Trek! Outstanding!
X62503
New member
Seriously, JohnKSa, your pretension aside, I understand what you mean. The lesson in your message I have heard several places: while watching Star Trek; in church; and in some college philosophy courses. The lesson seems to be an extension of the Golden Rule that I live by, and which is all I can manage in the real world wherein, after I turn off the television, I go to sleep with my Glock 21 and hand-held light on the night stand.
Howland937
Active member
Ah, c'mon. That's so 2015
I am curious as to how welfare/snap/wic etc are factored into determining poverty rate. I would imagine anyone receiving assistance isn't actually "earning" an amount of income above the poverty line. It could be argued that affording relatively new vehicles, iPhones, Coach purses and $100 shoes would not constitute "impoverished", however the income they pay taxes on would show them to be.
On the topic of voting and what's best for society as a whole:
Kennedy implored people to ask not what their country can do for them, but what they can do for their country. Not enough people honor that request these days, and the people who do can't get together on what should be done, how it can be done, and who should do it.
If that mentality ever changes, we may get somewhere.
X62503
New member
I heard a story in the grocery store once: a lady who had to weigh 300 pounds said, "My three sisters weigh 500 pounds or more apiece. Momma calls me 'Skinny'." Your defense of our taxation policies is actually no defense at all.
Actually, that is incorrect. Unlike in biology/medicine, there is no empirical 'standard' against which we can compare societal factors. Currently we live in the wealthiest country in the history of the world, in the most peaceful time in the history of the world. Life expectancies are greater than at any time in our history. In the past election, a greater percentage of Americans voted than ever have. Illiteracy is almost completely wiped out, and more Americans than ever have college degrees. Industry has pushed down the cost of material goods. I am old enough to remember when one car per household was the norm - now, statistically, most households have double that. With televisions, it has gone from 1 to 3 (statistically).
All those are good things (well, maybe not TVs). And women and minorities are also wealthier and more politically powerful than ever before - also good (unless you are a white supremacist, I guess).
That is not to say that there are not things that could not be improved. Economic inequality has increased since the 1980s, largely a product of the Republican changes in the tax code to favor the wealthy (starting with Reagan, but continued through Trump). Because of similar reasons, the broader spending power of the average American worker has remained flat for half a century. Environmental issues will start to become critical if we don't make some changes to industry and transportation.
All of these things require leaders to be making decisions in time horizons long beyond even the lifetime of currently living Americans. If all we can think about is our short-term self-interest, then, like a credit-card spender, the problems will pile up, increasing steadily (then exponentially), and our collective futures will be grimmer. With almost 8 billion people on Earth (another problem), we can't afford to simply hunker down and do what is best for ourselves, ignoring the effects of our actions on the other ~8 billion people. It is just irresponsible.
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Maybe you know, and maybe you don’t ... but now parents have to co-sign student loans for their kids ... I have a 20year old daughter (the last one in the nest) in college that we have been putting money back since before she was born, she’s a junior now and so far we haven’t had to take out any loans, but it looks like she/we probably will next year ... especially if the economy crashes as I expect it to under Biden. On the other hand, if we withdraw the funds now we’ll be taxed heavily on them, and about 1/2 are in a 529 account so it can ONLY be spent on education. Unfortunately her calling is to be a teacher, so luckily for her we’re mostly prepared...
Her serious & longterm boyfriend will hopefully be an engineer of some sort ... he’s very intelligent and has received some very generous scholarships but childhood health issues prevented his parents from being able to put much back so he’ll have some significant loans to repay, but he seems to have a plan.
By the way, it took me 14 years to pay off my student loans so I know what you’re talking about.
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theotherwaldo
Well-known member
My parents were too broke to co-sign for anything.
Anyway, they both died before I paid off my student loans... .
Anyway, they both died before I paid off my student loans... .