"Socialism", by any other name...

[CrustyCoot]

Those are all very reasonable concerns. I can't answer them with any kind of certainty, because as far as I know, there's not written plan as of yet. But as other first-world nations seem to be doing it quite successfully, I would offer them up as potential blueprints. Though it's worth noting that some countries with a national healthcare system do still have a private hospital and health insurance market. I don't think those will go away whilst the US remains the wealthiest country in the world.

The prospect of letting government take up the reigns may seem daunting to many. But for anyone who can't afford to pay out of pocket, the reigns are not currently in our hands anyway. I actually think Biden's idea of a "public option" is a fairly good one. It can run as a test along side private insurance.

And all those first world nations pay taxes thru the ass to pay for it. No thanks! Our congress could fuck up a wet dream. They already screwed up the health care system,and you want them to have more power?

 

[Ranb]

It's great that you have access to top-notch health care. You've earned that AFAIC. I never hear current or former Senators or Rep's complain about theirs either.

I think I earned government provided health care just by being born here. I joined the Navy beucase I needed a job. I stayed to defend my country and for the benefits.

I'd rather not have spent months at sea and underwater just to come back to a shit-hole where my fellow Americans can't afford basic health care.

 

[WrongHanded]

And all those first world nations pay taxes thru the ass to pay for it. No thanks! Our congress could fuck up a wet dream. They already screwed up the health care system,and you want them to have more power?

Screwed it up for who? All those people who had pre-existing conditions?

You do realize there's plenty of corporate money in this country right? Perhaps they could pay some more taxes instead of paying tax lawyers to figure out how to avoid taxes.

But please, let's hear your idea.

 

[doubleh]

Screwed it up for who? All those people who had pre-existing conditions?

You do realize there's plenty of corporate money in this country right? Perhaps they could pay some more taxes instead of paying tax lawyers to figure out how to avoid taxes.

But please, let's hear your idea.

You do realize that when more taxes are levied on corporations they just pass it along to us in higher prices and we end up paying them. I know more taxes on corporations sounds good but it just doesn't work that way as has been proven over and over.

Anyway, by reading through these posts I have found two, and maybe three, good little socialists, eager for government to control more of their lives.

 

[WrongHanded]

You do realize that when more taxes are levied on corporations they just pass it along to us in higher prices and we end up paying them. I know more taxes on corporations sounds good but it just doesn't work that way as has been proven over and over.

Oh, well in that case maybe we shouldn't tax them at all. That way everything the sell to us will be cheaper. What a brilliant idea.

Or maybe, if they start charging more, it will mean smaller companies can succeed. Which creates market competition and lower prices.

Corporations may have the same rights as citizens in the US. But they're not actually people. If all the employees are fired, what's left? Money, real estate, physical assets, and intellectual technology? Corporations are systems to consolidate wealth. The product or service doesn't matter to that system. The employees don't matter to that system. The customers don't matter to that system. It is designed to consolidate wealth, and that is all. That is neither good nor evil. It's just a machine. The system may have been born of a good concept, something useful or desire able. It may have been created by a good and honest person, trying to improve lives in some way. But that intent does not affect what the system does. It still consolidates wealth.

So the questions is, what is done with that consolidated wealth?

Money is a tricky thing. The original intent was to facilitate trade. Then it was used to store work. Then it became used to create more wealth via lending. None of these things are bad. But now, we have a country living in personal debt. And we also have food rotting in dumpsters and crops being turned under whilst some American's (1 in 4 children, if I remember correctly) are going hungry. All because of how and where money moves.

We have attained a level of technology that could provide everyone in the country with the necessary essentials, provide healthcare for everyone, and a good education for every child. All that's stopping that, is where the money is and where it isn't. So, I'm not worried about the corporations. They simply do not need all the money they're consolidating. Take away the power of the people through government, and corporations would run everything. Which sounds truly terrifying to me. And they're already well invested in trying to buy politicians on both sides of the isle.

 

[CrustyCoot]

Oh, well in that case maybe we shouldn't tax them at all. That way everything the sell to us will be cheaper. What a brilliant idea.

Or maybe, if they start charging more, it will mean smaller companies can succeed. Which creates market competition and lower prices.

Corporations may have the same rights as citizens in the US. But they're not actually people. If all the employees are fired, what's left? Money, real estate, physical assets, and intellectual technology? Corporations are systems to consolidate wealth. The product or service doesn't matter to that system. The employees don't matter to that system. The customers don't matter to that system. It is designed to consolidate wealth, and that is all. That is neither good nor evil. It's just a machine. The system may have been born of a good concept, something useful or desire able. It may have been created by a good and honest person, trying to improve lives in some way. But that intent does not affect what the system does. It still consolidates wealth.

So the questions is, what is done with that consolidated wealth?

Money is a tricky thing. The original intent was to facilitate trade. Then it was used to store work. Then it became used to create more wealth via lending. None of these things are bad. But now, we have a country living in personal debt. And we also have food rotting in dumpsters and crops being turned under whilst some American's (1 in 4 children, if I remember correctly) are going hungry. All because of how and where money moves.

We have attained a level of technology that could provide everyone in the country with the necessary essentials, provide healthcare for everyone, and a good education for every child. All that's stopping that, is where the money is and where it isn't. So, I'm not worried about the corporations. They simply do not need all the money they're consolidating. Take away the power of the people through government, and corporations would run everything. Which sounds truly terrifying to me. And they're already well invested in trying to buy politicians on both sides of the isle.

I hope you find your socialist/communist utopia, just not here.

 

[The Last Outlaw]

Corporations buying politicians and power will be the true death of this country.

 

[roscoe]

Before Honolulu Barry trashed the health care system, I had low deductible, low out of pocket cost coverage. Instead of getting coverage for those that needed it, no.. lets eff up the whole damn system. The mouse trap works because the mouse doesn't understand why the cheese is free.

The data on number of uninsured Americans suggests your understanding of the health care system is incorrect (whatever your particular circumstances may be):

 

[CrustyCoot]

The data on number of uninsured Americans suggests your understanding of the health care system is incorrect (whatever your particular circumstances may be):

View attachment 939

What I stated is that my health insurance was head and shoulders better than it is now. Had they written the law to get affordable coverage for those that had no insurance and left everbody else's insurance alone, it would have been a great achievement. So yes, he did eff it up for all of those that already had good insurance.

 

[roscoe]

What I stated is that my health insurance was head and shoulders better than it is now. Had they written the law to get affordable coverage for those that had no insurance and left everbody else's insurance alone, it would have been a great achievement. So yes, he did eff it up for all of those that already had good insurance.

Well, you have presented what we call, in science (I am a scientist), an 'anecdote'.

Let me offer another - my health insurance, and that of my family, has been unaffected, and we still have excellent and affordable coverage.

But an additional anecdote: now because of the ACA my adult brother, who was born with a genetic disease (cystic fibrosis), can get health coverage. The ACA outlawed the 'pre-existing coverage' exceptions permitted to health insurance companies under the previous laws. So, now he is much less likely to die of that disease because of an inability to pay for the treatments and medications.

This is an empirical argument, and the data will not really show us the underlying patterns for many years. But it does seem like states that have rejected Medicaid expansion (part of the ACA) are fairing worse in may measurable ways.

 

[CrustyCoot]

I am happy for your brother, sincerely. I work in manufacturing, which suffered quite badly prior to and during the Obama years. Wages have still not fully recovered since. We used to have insurance that was top notch, as good as you could get, with almost no out of pocket cost. When I had my first hip replaced, prior to Obama care, my out of pocket cost was $184. Last year I had a hip and knee replaced, north of $12K. That anecdotal example applies to many thousands of people. All I am saying is that Obama care could have addressed cases such as your brother's without harming those of us that had good insurance.

 

[CrustyCoot]

There are things that I do find very good with the ACA, pre-existing conditions being one of them and something that should have been in place long before the ACA was implemented. But in my case and that of thousands, ACA is not all that affordable.

 

[theotherwaldo]

Yep.
A scheduled colonoscopy went from a $20.00 copay to $1200.00 under Obamacare... .

 

[WrongHanded]

All I am saying is that Obama care could have addressed cases such as your brother's without harming those of us that had good insurance.

I'm fairly sure that was the intent of the controversial fee/fine/penalty that the ACA called for. If insurance companies are going to be required to cover "losers" (meaning people who are a net lose to them financially) they have to cover those costs somehow. The idea was to put pressure on the young and healthy who opted to go without insurance to enter the pool and help cover those costs. It proved fairly ineffective as the "incentive" was not a high enough cost to many/most of them.

As a result, the costs went up for everyone else, or coverage went down, or both. Then between the providers and the insurance companies taking advantage of people, costs just kept going up. And here we are. It was done with good intent, but a for-profit system is never going to work in the patient's best interest.

 

[CrustyCoot]

Without profit, there is no investment in state of the art equipment and medical procedures. A recipe for inferior health care. Profit is not a dirty word. Without it, we would be a third world nation.

 

[WrongHanded]

Without profit, there is no investment in state of the art equipment and medical procedures. A recipe for inferior health care. Profit is not a dirty word. Without it, we would be a third world nation.

Then let me rephrase. The monetary pool into which the insured contribute, need not be a for-profit enterprise.

ETA: In addition, NASA is not for profit and has been responsible for much of the roots of technological revolution, through their efforts.

 

[roscoe]

I am happy for your brother, sincerely. I work in manufacturing, which suffered quite badly prior to and during the Obama years. Wages have still not fully recovered since. We used to have insurance that was top notch, as good as you could get, with almost no out of pocket cost. When I had my first hip replaced, prior to Obama care, my out of pocket cost was $184. Last year I had a hip and knee replaced, north of $12K. That anecdotal example applies to many thousands of people. All I am saying is that Obama care could have addressed cases such as your brother's without harming those of us that had good insurance.

Right, but to say that Obama trashed the health care system based on an n of one, or even 100 or 1000 is absurd. The question is about the broader effect on the 10s of millions. But further to this, there will inevitably improvements that might be made - this is how government used to work. But now the Republicans have just decided that they will try to sink it, or defund it and let the suffering of the broader population make it unpopular.

A reasonable good-faith bipartisan effort would go a long way to helping improve it, but you just won't see Mitch McConnel try to do that - because his main concern was always simply trying to make the Democrats lose.

So, here we are.

 

[CrustyCoot]

Right, but to say that Obama trashed the health care system based on an n of one, or even 100 or 1000 is absurd. The question is about the broader effect on the 10s of millions. But further to this, there will inevitably improvements that might be made - this is how government used to work. But now the Republicans have just decided that they will try to sink it, or defund it and let the suffering of the broader population make it unpopular.

A reasonable good-faith bipartisan effort would go a long way to helping improve it, but you just won't see Mitch McConnel try to do that - because his main concern was always simply trying to make the Democrats lose.

So, here we are.

He ruined it for millions more than it helped.

 

[WrongHanded]

He ruined it for millions more than it helped.

Yup. It'll never go back to how it was. So what now? Expand medicare right?

 

[CrustyCoot]

Time and time again, govt has proven that it can fuck up a wet dream. No, thanks anyway.