"Socialism", by any other name...

[WrongHanded]

All bona-fide branches of government that have little to nothing to do with control of production.

That's very true. Unless you count influencing the minds of children and young adults to be a way to "control production".

What about Social Security or Medicare? Are they controlling production? Socialist programs aren't all about the means of production. Sometimes they're just about elevating the living standards and opportunities of those who lack the ability to do so for themselves.

 

[The Last Outlaw]

Looks like WrongHanded answered your question for me. I agree.

 

[Selena]

I really have to wonder where you were taught government theory. The postal system has been the property of kings since feudal times, public schools were not universal (read state or federally funded) until the Wilson administration well after the Homestead Act. The idea of police & military being the hallmark of a socialist society is so idiotic that out of the assumption you have some intelligence I'll assume you are joking. As for fire departments... Your name isn't Vigiles is it?

 

[Ilbob]

How about the postal service, public schools, police and fire departments, the military, should I go on?

I agree postal service, fire departments, and public schools are socialist.

But military and law enforcement are legitimate functions of government that would be difficult if not impossible to accomplish in any other way.

incidentally many fire departments originally started by insurance companies who carried the fire insurance for the building. if your building started on fire your insurance company fire department would respond.

 

[WrongHanded]

But military and law enforcement are legitimate functions of government that would be difficult if not impossible to accomplish in any other way.

From a historical standpoint, I'd say it's fairly likely that the concept of an established military and full time police force of some description, originated under the sole command of the King/Emperor/Pharaoh. And was used for the leader's personal benefit, rather than that of the people.

So it's arguable that the intended function of a military or LE body is the defining factor as to where their existance is a socialist program. If they work to protect the People, the concept is socialist. If they work to protect and serve the King alone, maybe not so much.

 

[Jeff62]

Blue Dog Democrat here. Also, happy Catholic. Interesting arguments all but what concerns me most lately is the disappeared middle ground. Positions/beliefs seem to be firmly rooted right or left. If there is no allowance made then there is no discussion, only argument.
Just a passing thought as I read the preceding posts.

 

[Demi-human]

Blue Dog Democrat here. Also, happy Catholic. Interesting arguments all but what concerns me most lately is the disappeared middle ground. Positions/beliefs seem to be firmly rooted right or left. If there is no allowance made then there is no discussion, only argument.
Just a passing thought as I read the preceding posts.

Exactly. This is always a long infomercial for one extreme, played off the disingenuous view of the other.

For certain I, too, lean a particular direction. But we ALL used to be middle ground. Now if you don’t wear a Vagina hat, you’re a nazi. Which is one and the same.

“Let’s talk about all the social programs that really make us socialist!”

~The ones you are screaming to defund?~

“Capitalism sucks!”

~I agree. That’s why I’m taking your stuff at gunpoint...~

“This time will be different, than the last times...”

~It is. We’re here. Why do you want to go someplace else?~

Here you can be a deadbeat and live off the taxpayer if you want. You can also be Donald Trump if you want. You can even be miserable because of the existence of both if you want.

But, no. We have to wreck that too. We can’t have some of “us” different. We must all be the same.

Just with different clothes...

 

[WrongHanded]

Blue Dog Democrat here. Also, happy Catholic. Interesting arguments all but what concerns me most lately is the disappeared middle ground. Positions/beliefs seem to be firmly rooted right or left. If there is no allowance made then there is no discussion, only argument.
Just a passing thought as I read the preceding posts.

It would be nice if we were all in the middle ground. But are there any policy stances for a middle ground resolution to any of the large social issues? I'm having a hard time finding any.

You see, when I start a thread such as this one, some people assume that because I appose an extreme view, that I am on the other extreme. That's not the case. I look at society as a whole and try to decide what the most pragmatic solution is to a given problem. I don't just look at what's best for me, in my little corner of the world. But many people do just that. Many people don't want to consider the point of view of anyone with whom they cannot easily empathise. Nor do they care to consider the social or economic environment in which others reside.

Pretty unfortunate, but a reality none the less.

 

[The Last Outlaw]

I really have to wonder where you were taught government theory. The postal system has been the property of kings since feudal times, public schools were not universal (read state or federally funded) until the Wilson administration well after the Homestead Act. The idea of police & military being the hallmark of a socialist society is so idiotic that out of the assumption you have some intelligence I'll assume you are joking. As for fire departments... Your name isn't Vigiles is it?

Wow, you are really insulting. Anyway, let's move on.

Postal system here has nothing to do with kings, and it was definitely set up by the government for the people.

Who said schools were universal. There have definitely been community funded public schools in this country since before it started. Socialism.

Police and Fire Departments. Once again, funded by community for the good of everyone. Again, socialism.

I'll close by saying that, although I don't agree with you, I refrained from insulting you. Maybe you should try that, too.

 

[Selena]

Wow, you are really insulting. Anyway, let's move on.

Postal system here has nothing to do with kings, and it was definitely set up by the government for the people.

Who said schools were universal. There have definitely been community funded public schools in this country since before it started. Socialism.

Police and Fire Departments. Once again, funded by community for the good of everyone. Again, socialism.

I'll close by saying that, although I don't agree with you, I refrained from insulting you. Maybe you should try that, too.

I see, then I must insult your intelligence by taking you seriously. The police do not operate for the benefit of the citizen but to protect the authority of the state. Likewise the postal system is the answer for the state's need to communicate with it's bureaucracy.

Now... community funded schools... since the beginning? The Confederacy didn't have the money for schools and only the well to do areas funded schools and then on a voluntary basis. School funding didn't fall under the state until the Morrill Act which was a rider of the Homestead Act. Even then the states were bequeathed land with the proviso the sale of that land support schools both elementary and college level.

Now we're are back to fire departments my dear Vigiles... Until the last century fire departments were either commercial or volunteer. As was mentioned before insurance companies took over the mess with less than satisfactory results. But then you have either heard of Boss Tweed and the Black Joke company and the description would be unnecessary or you haven't in which case you would claim that proves your socialist point. IIRC the first government funded fire service was Cincinnati Ohio in 1852 or 53. Of course it's just a co-incidence that Miles Greenwood convinced the city to set up the new department and I'm sure his resources and standing from owning Eagle Ironworks - one of the largest steel companies in the midwest - and the fact he had the most to gain from it had nothing to do with it.

 

[WrongHanded]

The police do not operate for the benefit of the citizen but to protect the authority of the state.

Err... You might want to think on that some more. Whilst LE does not have a responsibility to an individual citizen, they are charged with protecting and serving society as a whole. Which is the People.

I can give you some examples, if you'd like.

 

[AlaskanIronworker]

Im tired of hearing that healthcare is a right. Healthcare is the product of another human’s hard work and labor. One has a right to healthcare no more than one has a right to take a farmer’s crop, or a mechanics services, or a bakers bread etc.
As far as the left undermining constitutional rights, which states have infringed the most on the second amendment? Red states or blue states? Which states mandate masks for that matter?

 

[WrongHanded]

Im tired of hearing that healthcare is a right. Healthcare is the product of another human’s hard work and labor.

You won't catch me saying it's a right. I don't think education, roads, courts, law enforcement or anything else that directly requires the work of others are Rights.

Doesn't mean we can't provide those things though. It just comes down to how well educated, healthy, and mentally stable we want our society to be.

 

[George P]

Get rid of the welfare state period; the government doesn't owe you a house, cell phone, medica care or anything else the Dems have decided to give away

 

[theotherwaldo]

We should have a right to access to healthcare.
Right now, many of us don't... unless we have covid.
-And it looks like Biden is going to re-institute the Health Care Penalty on those that lose their healthcare insurance because they lost their jobs... .

 

[army_eod]

 

[CrustyCoot]

Okay, I'm going to breeze by that point about undermining the Constitution, because as interesting as it may be to discuss, it's not on topic for this thread. Though I would be happy to join you in a discussion about it, if you'd care to start one.

Back to the topic at hand (or closer to it). Why can't the Republicans meet the Democrats in the middle on some of our social issues? I think we can all agree that the growing number of homeless in this country isn't a good thing. I think we can all agree that in lieu of good parenting (which is subjective and impossible to enforce) a decent standard of education is the best way to start a young American Citizen on the path to success. And I think we can all agree that a for-profit healthcare system that refuses service to people who can't pay, or refuses to cover them with insurance when they have a pre-existing condition, is not doing our society any great service. So why don't the Republicans seem interested in those things? Surely a more educated and healthier population would be to the betterment of our society? And we are, after all, the wealthiest nation in the world. If any country could afford it, it's ours. Yet others seem to manage it.

Every time the right gives an inch, the#^&#%^& left takes a mile. I'm done turning the other cheek. The right needs to play by the accepted rules of the left. When our cities burned last year, not one POS democrat said anything against that behavior. But it's insurrection when a handful of assholes breaks a few windows in the Capitol? And more likely than not,they were not Trump supporters in the first place.

 

[WrongHanded]

When our cities burned last year, not one POS democrat said anything against that behavior.

I heard democrats denouncing the behavior. But then again, I watch and listen to MSM news.

 

[Jeff62]

POS Democrat?
When we paint with a broad brush paint gets where it wasn’t intended. The consequence when civil talk ends is someone gets enough, gets angry, and nothing is solved. I learned about taking sides and name calling at recess in grade school.
Loss of life and destruction of property happened in D.C. and in other places prior. One wild eyed brainless mob is no better than the other. No reasonable and prudent person would equivocate on that.
Say a prayer for the faithful departed.........on both sides.

 

[roscoe]

And not a single one of them are as great as the USA. We are unique. We are the envy of the rest of the world. That’s why we have so many people trying to immigrate, also why we are hated. We were founded under the principles of God. We are free. The Left as it has become will take that away wether you believe it or not. Anyone that doesn’t like America...feel free to pick a country from the list and head out.

Say what? virtually all of what you said is factually incorrect. America is not hated, which is why so many try to immigrate (see your self-contradiction?). The USA was the first SECULAR democracy (check Article 6, and the first clause if the First Amendment). The left could not care less whom you worship, as long as you don't try to impose it on anyone else.

OH, BTW, it was the Trumpsters who said they would rather be Russian than Democrat. Traitors?