"Socialism", by any other name...

WrongHanded

Active member
My reasoning is you saying you want to inch by inch add more socialism to our country because "we already have some".

Thats literally how ideological subversion works.

Ah, so you think that after we fix healthcare, education, the homeless crisis, address poverty, and move towards a carbon neutral energy and manufacturing infrastructure, that THEN I want the people to seize the means of production, abandon currency, and give handouts based on an as needed basis with no consideration to merit.

Because after we balance society so it works well for everybody and is sustainable, I'll be so drunk on change that I'll decide we need to ruin it with communism?

Sure. You got me peg.
 

Ivy Mike

Member
Congrats, you're the first antifa I've actually knowingly spoken with. ;)
I can almost promise you, I'm not. :) Most of us don't wear it like a hat.

But really now, nobody here has espoused anything like actual communism; Marxist, Leninist, Castro or otherwise.
Pressuring politicians for social programs with a proven track record of success is not communist. We look at the success of socialized health insurance and see that it prevents bankruptcy from medical bills, generally yields positive outcomes and provides a boost to the working class who no longer has to pay outrageous sums for medical care because price controls are a thing.
 

Good Ol' Boy

New member
Ah, so you think that after we fix healthcare, education, the homeless crisis, address poverty, and move towards a carbon neutral energy and manufacturing infrastructure, that THEN I want the people to seize the means of production, abandon currency, and give handouts based on an as needed basis with no consideration to merit.

Because after we balance society so it works well for everybody and is sustainable, I'll be so drunk on change that I'll decide we need to ruin it with communism?

Sure. You got me peg.



With every word you speak your reinforcing what I'm saying.

I'm not sure whether or not you really realize it or not but thats irrelevant.

Nothing else for you and I to talk about.
 

WrongHanded

Active member
With every word you speak your reinforcing what I'm saying.

I'm not sure whether or not you really realize it or not but thats irrelevant.

Nothing else for you and I to talk about.


Oh no!....

It's....
Happpeenniingg!!!

I'm feeling the need to..... Seize the means of production!!!

Just kidding. ;)
 

Ivy Mike

Member
But it is, and there's nothing "proven" about them. And the fact that you don't realize that leaves us at a impass discussion wise.

You don't consider the long running stability of these systems in other nations, to be proof of their efficacy?
Can you even articulate a reason why?
 

The Last Outlaw

New member
My reasoning is you saying you want to inch by inch add more socialism to our country because "we already have some".

Thats literally how ideological subversion works.
We don't just have some socialist policies, our society is filled with them! Military, public schools, public roads, welfare, police and fire departments, the post office, public parks, national parks, government grants for things like college, SOCIAL Security, all socialist programs. Do you want to do without any if those things so that the dirty socialists don't control our country?
 

Selena

Member
Ah, so you think that after we fix healthcare, education, the homeless crisis, address poverty, and move towards a carbon neutral energy and manufacturing infrastructure, that THEN I want the people to seize the means of production, abandon currency, and give handouts based on an as needed basis with no consideration to merit.

Because after we balance society so it works well for everybody and is sustainable, I'll be so drunk on change that I'll decide we need to ruin it with communism?

Sure. You got me peg.
All those "causes" are the excuse to seize the means of production. I give you the war on the coal industry as a prime example. As for a society that "works well for everyone" that is a utopian value with no bearing or meaning in the real world.
 

Ivy Mike

Member
All those "causes" are the excuse to seize the means of production. I give you the war on the coal industry as a prime example. As for a society that "works well for everyone" that is a utopian value with no bearing or meaning in the real world.
War on coal?
That's a funny way of saying 'the results of a free market'
 

WrongHanded

Active member
All those "causes" are the excuse to seize the means of production. I give you the war on the coal industry as a prime example. As for a society that "works well for everyone" that is a utopian value with no bearing or meaning in the real world.

They're not MY excuses though Selena. By which, I mean that to me they are not excuses for anything. I have no hidden agenda behind wanting a country that works for more people based on expanding social programs.

Firstly you have no proof of that agenda. Not a shred of proof. Secondly, even if you did, it would not mean that most people in favor of those "causes" want anything more than precisely those things. Having more social programs does not mean we give up the right to vote, or the ability to change things if we don't like what the government is doing.

Have you ever stopped to consider that the conspiracy you're looking for is the super wealthy elite behind corporate power, who want a class of economic slaves, and to further control them by personal debt? Those guys back the Republicans.
 
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Alexx1401

Member
Punitive government regulation is free market? What color is the sky in your universe?
This rapidly gets to the point it's like trying to blow out a light bulb. People who beg for top down Government control will NEVER hear facts. They don't want to. Sadly we have slowly become a country where people no longer yearn for freedom. They instead yearn to be taken care of. Freedom means you have to take responsibility for the things you do, choices you make ect. We have raised a few generations now to believe that no matter how many stupid things they do it was someone else's fault. So they need to be taken care of. Government is all to eager to step in and do this. All they need is to take some more freedom for the promise of taking care of you. Hey sounds great until it's too late.
 

Ivy Mike

Member
This rapidly gets to the point it's like trying to blow out a light bulb. People who beg for top down Government control will NEVER hear facts. They don't want to. Sadly we have slowly become a country where people no longer yearn for freedom. They instead yearn to be taken care of. Freedom means you have to take responsibility for the things you do, choices you make ect. We have raised a few generations now to believe that no matter how many stupid things they do it was someone else's fault. So they need to be taken care of. Government is all to eager to step in and do this. All they need is to take some more freedom for the promise of taking care of you. Hey sounds great until it's too late.
If you removed every piece of regulation in regards to coal, it would still be more expensive than natural gas.
 

Selena

Member
This rapidly gets to the point it's like trying to blow out a light bulb. People who beg for top down Government control will NEVER hear facts. They don't want to. Sadly we have slowly become a country where people no longer yearn for freedom. They instead yearn to be taken care of. Freedom means you have to take responsibility for the things you do, choices you make ect. We have raised a few generations now to believe that no matter how many stupid things they do it was someone else's fault. So they need to be taken care of. Government is all to eager to step in and do this. All they need is to take some more freedom for the promise of taking care of you. Hey sounds great until it's too late.

I beg your pardon? At what point do you interpret my posts at wanting the .gov to "take care of me?"
 

Alexx1401

Member
I beg your pardon? At what point do you interpret my posts at wanting the .gov to "take care of me?"
I am talking about the people who want top down control. You can't "reason with them". They do not hear or see facts any more. It becomes a religion with them.
People who champion top down all fall into two groups. Either they are VERY high up on the food chain, so they will, or at least they think they will be in power, over others, or they want the Government to take care of them, protect them from their poor choices and such. They often try to pretend this is not Socialism they are after. People come up will all kinds of names to try to hide what they want. Bottom line it has never worked, never will. At some point it fails. It always sounds very good though. Tell people everyone will be treated "fairly". Whats the old line from Animal Farm? Some animals are more equal than others I think it went? This is how it always goes. People delude themselves into thinking this time it will be different but it never is. There is no reaching them <shrug>
The answer is always pass another law, have Government make another agency with power, ect. Then when it turns into a mess blame people who were never in power and had nothing to do with it all. <shrug>
 

ZeeM

New member
If you removed every piece of regulation in regards to coal, it would still be more expensive than natural gas.
Not to mention destruction of the water supply. In South Africa, we have a massive problem with acid mine water. Where water seeps into abandoned mines, mixes with chemicals left behind from the mining process and leeches into the environment. There are areas that are totally uninhabitable due to "capitalism" as you define it.
 

WrongHanded

Active member
I am talking about the people who want top down control.

What do you mean by "top down control"? People who want a government to use taxation to fund programs that are beneficial for most or all citizens? Or something more than that?

Be really specific here.
 

Ivy Mike

Member
Not to mention destruction of the water supply. In South Africa, we have a massive problem with acid mine water. Where water seeps into abandoned mines, mixes with chemicals left behind from the mining process and leeches into the environment. There are areas that are totally uninhabitable due to "capitalism" as you define it.
But if we were allowed to have true, unrestrained capitalism, you could just use the power of the markets and not buy the fuel from the producers who polluted the water supply!
That would fix it for sure!!!
 
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