"Socialism", by any other name...

WrongHanded

Active member
Okay, I'm pretty sick of hearing this line about how the Democratic party is now full of socialists and communists. So....

Which of these countries do you think are socialist, and why?

Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Great Britain, Canada, the Netherlands, Spain, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, Australia, Japan, and New Zealand.

I ask because all of them have some socialist policies and programs. This might be eye opening, as it explains in some depth how these countries are blending socialism and capitalism to varying degrees. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/democratic-socialist-countries

It's not all or nothing.
 

Steve Milbocker

New member
And not a single one of them are as great as the USA. We are unique. We are the envy of the rest of the world. That’s why we have so many people trying to immigrate, also why we are hated. We were founded under the principles of God. We are free. The Left as it has become will take that away wether you believe it or not. Anyone that doesn’t like America...feel free to pick a country from the list and head out.
 

WrongHanded

Active member
And not a single one of them are as great as the USA. We are unique. We are the envy of the rest of the world. That’s why we have so many people trying to immigrate, also why we are hated. We were founded under the principles of God. We are free. The Left as it has become will take that away wether you believe it or not. Anyone that doesn’t like America...feel free to pick a country from the list and head out.

Plenty of people immigrate to those countries Steve. And I'm fairly sure none of those countries have quite the homeless problem we do. Neither are they so divided as we are.

But I'm curious, as you seem to think America is so great (not that I necessarily disagree), why do you think that is in comparison to any of those countries? And have you ever been to any of them and experienced any of these other societies, or are you just saying it out of blind belief?
 

Steve Milbocker

New member
Our Constitution. No other country to my knowledge guards our freedoms like this. Our founding fathers lived under the tyranny that the Left would have us return to. Canada is the only foreign country I’ve ever been to. I’ve never lived there however. As far as immigration, I’m sure no other country deals with the number of people wanting to immigrate than we do. Blind belief? More like Faith.
 

WrongHanded

Active member
Our Constitution. No other country to my knowledge guards our freedoms like this. Our founding fathers lived under the tyranny that the Left would have us return to. Canada is the only foreign country I’ve ever been to. I’ve never lived there however. As far as immigration, I’m sure no other country deals with the number of people wanting to immigrate than we do. Blind belief? More like Faith.

Clearly you missed the mass migration from Syria that flooded Europe.

The Constitution was a great idea when it was originally conceived, and is still relevant today. But the voice of the people (whatever the country) is what makes the difference. Because, if we as a nation chose to simply ignore the Constitution, it would cease to be relevant. It's the people and their beliefs, the choices they make, and the future they want, that determines the course of Democratic Republics. Not pieces of paper.

And of course, my point here is not that any of these countries are better than the US in general terms. It's that we could offer more social programs and create a better minimum standard of living for everyone, without losing our rights, or crushing the middle class. The Left doesn't want us to go back to the tyranny of the British Empire circa 1700s. Nobody anywhere wants that.

But wouldn't it be nice if we could give every kid the opportunity for a good education. Not strangle the working class and middle class with medical costs that the rich don't feel, and that the poor get for free. And perhaps try and address our drug addiction problem, homeless problem, and some better protections for people who lose their jobs through no fault of their own (such as in a pandemic).

Most of those other countries handle those things better than we do.
 

WrongHanded

Active member
Exactly. The Left are the only ones I see trying to undermine the Constitution because it stands in their way to further their agenda.
Okay, I'm going to breeze by that point about undermining the Constitution, because as interesting as it may be to discuss, it's not on topic for this thread. Though I would be happy to join you in a discussion about it, if you'd care to start one.

Back to the topic at hand (or closer to it). Why can't the Republicans meet the Democrats in the middle on some of our social issues? I think we can all agree that the growing number of homeless in this country isn't a good thing. I think we can all agree that in lieu of good parenting (which is subjective and impossible to enforce) a decent standard of education is the best way to start a young American Citizen on the path to success. And I think we can all agree that a for-profit healthcare system that refuses service to people who can't pay, or refuses to cover them with insurance when they have a pre-existing condition, is not doing our society any great service. So why don't the Republicans seem interested in those things? Surely a more educated and healthier population would be to the betterment of our society? And we are, after all, the wealthiest nation in the world. If any country could afford it, it's ours. Yet others seem to manage it.
 

Ivy Mike

Member
Exactly. The Left are the only ones I see trying to undermine the Constitution because it stands in their way to further their agenda.
Really? How so?
Which part of the constitution is the left attempting to undermine? What agenda is it the left is trying to push?
 

Ivy Mike

Member
Okay, I'm going to breeze by that point about undermining the Constitution, because as interesting as it may be to discuss, it's not on topic for this thread. Though I would be happy to join you in a discussion about it, if you'd care to start one.

Back to the topic at hand (or closer to it). Why can't the Republicans meet the Democrats in the middle on some of our social issues? I think we can all agree that the growing number of homeless in this country isn't a good thing. I think we can all agree that in lieu of good parenting (which is subjective and impossible to enforce) a decent standard of education is the best way to start a young American Citizen on the path to success. And I think we can all agree that a for-profit healthcare system that refuses service to people who can't pay, or refuses to cover them with insurance when they have a pre-existing condition, is not doing our society any great service. So why don't the Republicans seem interested in those things? Surely a more educated and healthier population would be to the betterment of our society? And we are, after all, the wealthiest nation in the world. If any country could afford it, it's ours. Yet others seem to manage it.
The answer is really that right wing types don't want the 'others' to move up the ranks of the pyramid of society. There is this idea that the cream rises to the top and is therefore worthy of their station in life. Being a capitalist society, this worth is often tied to net worth. The richest taking their place at the top is seen as morally just. The wealthiest are at the top, the monied interests are the 2nd tier. The middle class in the 3rd and the working class and poor are at the bottom. It is seen as useful for the middle and the monied groups to have mobility and the opportunity or at least, the illusion of opportunity, to move up. The monied interests can join the wealthy. The middle can become the monied interests and so on.
The problem comes from the bottom. The bottom tier in our pyramid scheme often lacks the resources or is denied access to the tools that could really help them in their push upwards into the middle class. Things that other nations provide such as subsidized higher education, medical care, subsidized child care, etc. are all tools of societal improvement but they also engender upward mobility.
You hear lots of arguments against this, about how it's not really fair because some people have to pay full rip for their college and don't get handouts. It doesn't make things equal that some people have to pay for healthcare while others get it free or cheap. It's not fair because the wealthiest have to pay extra taxes for the lowest class to move up.
But in each argument, we see that this supposed reverence for a meritocracy is nothing but a farce.

The wealthiest don't wish to deny subsidized education because everyone should have to pay their own way and be responsible. They had access to the resources that made that higher education possible and giving them out to everyone seemingly takes away that thing they have, which many others do not.

Free healthcare isn't actually free and it shouldn't be, because its expensive and an oppressive tax burden, is the argument most frequently floated. But that appeal towards a sense of fair play and "equality" is false, because the monied classes not only have the wealth to pay for care (or have it provided to them at no cost like a certain US President who caught Covid-19 and got treatments that most people could never afford) but benefit from the inequality. See, they tend to hold the reins of these insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies and hospital/medical providers and it benefits them to keep prices high. Socialized health insurance would likely come with price controls and the death of insurance from lack of need.

The wealthiest don't like paying the taxes for social programs to move the lower classes up, not because its somehow unfair. I would contend it is entirely fair for a group who controls 90% of the wealth in a nation, to pay the vast majority of the taxes.

The simple fact is that the whole thing is circular reasoning.
'Wealth and power deserve to be on top.'
Why?
'Because wealth and power are moral'
How do you know?
'Because the wealthiest and powerful have moved to the top.'

It's Ayn Rand's erect nipple erotic fantasy...you know, other than her own collection of social security and medicare benefits.
 

Ivy Mike

Member
And not a single one of them are as great as the USA. We are unique. We are the envy of the rest of the world. That’s why we have so many people trying to immigrate, also why we are hated. We were founded under the principles of God. We are free. The Left as it has become will take that away wether you believe it or not. Anyone that doesn’t like America...feel free to pick a country from the list and head out.
Which Godly principles are you referring to?
The one where Jesus went on a rampage in the temple and threw the money lenders out because of god's prohibitions against Usury?
The one where God commanded us not to harvest to the edges of our fields so that the poor would have something to eat?
How about where Jesus said that if you have two cloaks, you must give one of them to the person who has none?

Blessed is the man who fears the Lord, who greatly delights in his commandments! [...] He has distributed freely, he has given to the poor; his righteousness endures forever; his horn is exalted in honour.[8]
— Psalms 112 (111): 1, 9
 

WrongHanded

Active member
The answer is really that right wing types don't want the 'others' to move up the ranks of the pyramid of society.

That was a great post, Mike! But I think there's another explanation, which although rooted in this very statement, is far more obvious.

The Republicans are bought and paid for by the wealthy elite. And they would rather keep getting paid and receiving favors than help the very people who elect them. So they spin a yarn about "socialists" and "communists" coming to steal everyone's rights away. Because that, the GDP, and the S&P500, is all they have to offer the Citizens of this Nation. Yet under the banner of "Make America Great Again" they push the corporate policies and agendas, and screw anyone who can't keep up.
 

Ivy Mike

Member
That was a great post, Mike! But I think there's another explanation, which although rooted in this very statement, is far more obvious.

The Republicans are bought and paid for by the wealthy elite. And they would rather keep getting paid and receiving favors than help the very people who elect them. So they spin a yarn about "socialists" and "communists" coming to steal everyone's rights away. Because that, the GDP, and the S&P500, is all they have to offer the Citizens of this Nation. Yet under the banner of "Make America Great Again" they push the corporate policies and agendas, and screw anyone who can't keep up.
Exactly!
If you can't keep up in this system that we've created, it's your fault and you deserve your low station in life.
How do you rise up? You have to work harder so you can go into debt for the cars and houses.
 

Good Ol' Boy

New member
From the OP "I'm sick of hearing how the democratic party is full of socialists and communism."

You might be tired of hearing it but that doesn't make it not true.

Are you advocating for communism?
 

WrongHanded

Active member
From the OP "I'm sick of hearing how the democratic party is full of socialists and communism."

You might be tired of hearing it but that doesn't make it not true.

Are you advocating for communism?

No. I'm not advocating for communism. Nor am I advocating for anything close to pure socialism.

What I and many others are advocating for, is to implement a few more (because we already use some) policies from socialism. And the OP was to illustrate that other first world nations have done that quite successfully. Yet we don't consider those countries socialist, do we?

These labels being push onto the Democratic party, aren't justified. Except maybe in Bernie's case. Though I think he wants something more akin to the Nordic model - which is democratic, but not exactly socialist in the most correct sense.

Of course, if you read the page I linked to in the OP, you already know what socialism is and isn't.
 

Good Ol' Boy

New member
You are are communist and don't even know it.

And that is sad as I'm sure there are many more like yourself, as indicated in this thread.
 
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