Normal May Be A Long Way Off

theotherwaldo

Well-known member
You talk to communists to find out what they're trying to do - so that you can counter it.
Talk, but never compromise.
 
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Howland937

Active member
Change is inevitable. This country has been changing continuously since July 5th, 1776 and it will keep on changing whether we like it or not. I doubt anyone here is affecting that change, by either creating it or stemming it. At least not in any meaningful way. Nobody here needs listen to anyone else here. Ignore and override.

A big chunk of the population did that throughout the last presidency. The officials they elected did the same, and now the shoe's on the other foot. Democrats can ignore Republicans with the only recourse being the threat of a lost election down the road. Lather, rinse, repeat.
No thank you.

We can't prevent change but we don't have to embrace it either. Dismissing it altogether is probably the quickest way to be on the outside looking in, though. I'd rather know what the opposition is trying to accomplish than wake up some day completely left out, living in the past.
 

wiscoaster

Well-known member
Change is inevitable. ...
Natural change that spontaneously develops from evolution in culture and society isn't the same as enforced change to effect specific desired political and ideological goals. In a democratic system the former is normal and acceptable but the latter is not unless effected by and through the existing constitutional system.
 

Howland937

Active member
Natural change that spontaneously develops from evolution in culture and society isn't the same as enforced change to effect specific desired political and ideological goals. In a democratic system the former is normal and acceptable but the latter is not unless effected by and through the existing constitutional system.
Truly. But I have to ask (risk of seeming un-conservative noted) who decides which change is natural and which is forced? Congress passed civil rights laws after it was determined that depriving certain people of certain rights was an old hat. Certain other people fought tooth-and-nail against allowing those groups anything resembling equal rights and still try to live in that past. In that regard, it was undoubtedly forced change that was naturally necessary.

Using the existing constitutional system won't be much of a challenge for them to make the changes they desire if we continue to be left out of the discussion. I can't help but feel that we've brought that upon ourselves by being dismissive.
 

wiscoaster

Well-known member
Truly. But I have to ask (risk of seeming un-conservative noted) who decides which change is natural and which is forced?
Oh, that's an easy one. If someone has to decide, then it's not natural. No one decided on rock 'n roll supplanting swing as the default pop music genre, for example. It just happened.
 

Howland937

Active member
Oh, that's an easy one. If someone has to decide, then it's not natural. No one decided on rock 'n roll supplanting swing as the default pop music genre, for example. It just happened.
But there were countless critics who called rock and roll the "devil's music" and tried to get it banned from the airwaves. What changed? Nothing. The critics abandoned their crusade because their voices were drowned out by the majority.

Was the civil rights act natural or forced? Women's suffrage? Becoming independent of England? Oftentimes, necessary change isn't naturally occurring. It takes decisions being made, action being taken.

Trust me, I resist any change from what I'm comfortable with or what I believe in as much as anyone. But when my end is near, I just hope I'm not reflecting on my life and realizing I picked the wrong hill to die on.
 

Howland937

Active member
Ummm, they died. Only Hitler was far enough beyond the line to bring about his own demise. The rest were vile pieces of shit, but knew the boundaries of what they could get away with.
 

roscoe

Well-known member
This has been a pretty interesting thread! I have been away, helping the family farm during the summer - no cell service out here in the mountains. And while I was away I got called an idiot! Wow - that hasn't happened since 5th grade!

I appreciate the willingness of most of you to debate - I do it because I think it is important for Americans to engage in honest debate with each other across the red/blue divide. I guess Good Ol' Boy just couldn't manage to do it, although I don't actually recall much debate with him anyway. He seems to want to label me a communist, but it seems pretty clear he doesn't know what that word means. Maybe it is just his version of generic name-calling. Oh well.

The last point of discussion is pretty interesting - how to distinguish organic change from top-down change. Sometimes it is obvious (say, Parliament taxing the colonies, or maybe Lenin and his bunch killing the Czar and taking over), but if the population in a democratic republic votes for a president and congress who pass laws, is change organic or top-down? In a democratic country, is it ever really top-down? Can't we just vote out the leaders we disagree with and change the laws we oppose? The ACA 'seems' top-down', but it passed the US Congress. Or is there something else about it that makes it 'top-down'? Aren't the voters the same as the music consumers tired of Benny Goodman and hungry for Chuck Berry ?
 
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Howland937

Active member
Are you are referring to their critics that were murdered or to the tyrants themselves that died of old age or by their own hand?

An amateur compared to Stalin and Mao.

What didn't they get away with?
I'm referring to the fact that the dictators essentially retained power until they died, so nothing changed. In fact, they routinely slaughtered their critics to make sure nothing changed. They all got away with that, certainly. There's a difference between critics' voices being drowned out by the masses and critics being drowned by tyrants though.

None but Hitler attempted to conquer their entire continent by force because they knew they wouldn't get away with THAT. Nobody bothered trying to stop them from their atrocities since it was mostly kept in house. The rest of the world simply didn't care at the time, or at least didn't care enough to risk nuclear war...and the despots knew that.

I'm not really clear on the comparison between dictators and pop music though, except to say they all have critics. Obviously we don't silence critics here like the people you named did... However, I'd probably oblige silencing some of these newer artists for the crap they're trying to sell as country music.
 
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Howland937

Active member
- I do it because I think it is important for Americans to engage in honest debate with each other across the red/blue divide
Too many people see "debate" and think it means "argue until somone's proven right", then the other side has to be wrong. I'm not trying to win hearts and minds, and anyone here that is is only fooling themselves. We're all a bunch of different folks from different areas with different backgrounds. Obviously we're going to have differing opinions on where we need to be and how best to get there as a society.

It is supposed to be a discussion board though. Nobody's obligated to defend their beliefs, but everyone should be willing to defend how they got them.
 

wiscoaster

Well-known member
This has been a pretty interesting thread! I have been away, helping the family farm during the summer - no cell service out here in the mountains. And while I was away I got called an idiot! ...
Well, at least I'm glad to know you're OK ... not dead, or something worse. :giggle:
 

wiscoaster

Well-known member
...

Was the civil rights act natural or forced? Women's suffrage? Becoming independent of England? Oftentimes, necessary change isn't naturally occurring. It takes decisions being made, action being taken.

...
I think these are all examples of change naturally occurring, not changes decided upon and then forced upon the unwilling by authoritarian decree. Yes, civil rights took a long time, and encouraged with some action from the top, but it's still a change occurring mostly from the bottom up, not wholly from the top down.
 

Howland937

Active member
No, here they just get canceled instead slaughtered.
I can get on board with that. BUT, has any of that nonsense made you change the way you do anything in your life? I mean, yeah it's made me a bit wary...but overall I pretty much do stuff the same way I always have. I'm not a churchgoer, but I believe the 10 Commandments are a pretty decent guide for being a good person. I try to live by them every day. Everything else is just noise. Emphasis on "try"
ETA, woulda been nice if they'd come up with a different one than adultery...or just stuck with 9.
 

Howland937

Active member
I think these are all examples of change naturally occurring, not changes decided upon and then forced upon the unwilling by authoritarian decree. Yes, civil rights took a long time, and encouraged with some action from the top, but it's still a change occurring mostly from the bottom up, not wholly from the top down.
And sometimes the bottom needs a swift kick to get moving.
 
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