Honest question - what was the answer in Afghanistan?

wiscoaster

Well-known member
Does anybody know what “fundamentally transform” means?

Here is a hint, You would not want to do it to anything you loved.

In other words, not something we should be doing to them and not something they should be doing to us.

Sort of the inverse of the Golden Rule, aka the "Law of Reciprocity" -- Matthew 7:12
Jesus said:
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them

Or as wiscoaster says: "if you don't appreciate getting kicked in the ass, don't kick anyone else in the ass either."
 

Reloadron

Member
The following is a copy of the Email I received yesterday from the VA.

Veterans from all eras are reacting to the events in Afghanistan, such as the U.S withdrawal and the takeover by the Taliban.​

You are not alone.​

Veterans may question the meaning of their service or whether it was worth the sacrifices they made. They may feel more moral distress about experiences they had during their service. It’s normal to feel this way. Talk with your friends and families, reach out to battle buddies, connect with a peer-to-peer network, or sign up for mental health services. Scroll down for a list common reactions and coping advice.​

Resources available right now​

Common Reactions

In reaction to current events in Afghanistan, Veterans may:
  • Feel frustrated, sad, helpless, grief or distressed
  • Feel angry or betrayed
  • Experience an increase in mental health symptoms like symptoms of PTSD or depression
  • Sleep poorly, drink more or use more drugs
  • Try to avoid all reminders or media or shy away from social situations
  • Have more military and homecoming memories
Veterans may question the meaning of their service or whether it was worth the sacrifices they made. They may feel more moral distress about experiences they had during their service.
Veterans may feel like they need to expect and/or prepare for the worst. For example, they may:
  • Become overly protective, vigilant, and guarded
  • Become preoccupied by danger
  • Feel a need to avoid being shocked by, or unprepared for, what may happen in the future
Feeling distress is a normal reaction to negative events, especially ones that feel personal. It can be helpful to let yourself feel those feelings rather than try to avoid them. Often, these feelings will naturally run their course. If they continue without easing up or if you feel overwhelmed by them, the suggestions below can be helpful.

Strategies for Managing Ongoing Distress​

At this moment, it may seem like all is lost, like your service or your sacrifices were for nothing. Consider the ways that your service made a difference, the impact it had on others’ lives or on your own life. Remember that now is just one moment in time and that things will continue to change.
It can be helpful to focus on the present and to engage in the activities that are most meaningful and valuable to you. Is there something you can do today that is important to you? This can be as an individual, a family member, a parent, or a community member. Something that is meaningful to you in regard to your work or your spirituality? Such activities won’t change the past or the things you can’t control, but they can help life feel meaningful and reduce distress, despite the things you cannot change.
It can also help to consider your thinking. Ask yourself if your thoughts are helpful to you right now. Are there ways you can change your thinking to be more accurate and less distressing? For example, are you using extreme thinking where you see the situation as all bad or all good? If so, try and think in less extreme terms. For example, rather than thinking “my service in Afghanistan was useless” consider instead “I helped keep Afghanistan safe.”
Finally, consider more general coping strategies that you may want to try including:
  • Engage in Positive Activities. Try to engage in positive, healthy, or meaningful activities, even if they are small, simple actions. Doing things that are rewarding, meaningful, or enjoyable, even if you don’t feel like it, can make you feel better.
  • Stay Connected. Spend time with people who give you a sense of security, calm, or happiness, or those who best understand what you are going through.
  • Practice Good Self Care. Look for positive coping strategies that help you manage your emotions. Listening to music, exercising, practicing breathing routines, spending time in nature or with animals, journaling, or reading inspirational text are some simple ways to help manage overwhelming or distressing emotions.
  • Stick to Your Routines. It can be helpful to stick to a schedule for when you sleep, eat, work, and do other day-to-day activities.
  • Limit Media Exposure. Limit how much news you take in if media coverage is increasing your distress.
  • Use a mobile app. Consider one of VA’s self-help apps (see https://www.ptsd.va.gov/appvid/mobile/) such as PTSD Coach which has tools that can help you deal with common reactions like, stress, sadness, and anxiety. You can also track your symptoms over time.
  • PTSD Coach Online. A series of online video coaches will guide you through 17 tools to help you manage stress. PTSD Coach Online is used on a computer, rather than a mobile device, and therefore can offer tools that involve writing.
If you develop your own ways of adapting to ongoing events and situations, you may gain a stronger sense of being able to deal with challenges, a greater sense of meaning or purpose, and an ability to mentor and support others in similar situations.

Afghanistan: How Veterans can reconcile service​

READ MORE



Afghanistan: How Veterans can learn from Vietnam Veterans​

READ MORE


Find a VA Facility near you.​

FACILITY LOCATOR

Not sure where to start?​

VA WELCOME KIT

Need to contact VA?​

Veterans Crisis Line: 1-800-273-8255 and press 1, Chat, or Text 838255
Homeless Veteran Resources: 1-877-424-3838 or Chat
White House VA Hotline: 1-855-948-2311​

Don't know what number to call?​

1-800-MyVA411 (800-698-2411) is never the wrong number​

Disclaimer: The sharing of any non-VA information does not constitute an endorsement of products or services on the part of the VA.​


You have received this message because you are subscribed to Veterans Affairs. Access your Subscriber Preferences to make changes to your subscription or Unsubscribe. Get this as a forward? Sign Up to receive updates from Veterans Affairs. Having questions or problems? Please visit subscriberhelp.govdelivery.com for assistance.
If you are having thoughts of suicide, call 1-800-273-8255, then PRESS 1 or visit http://www.veteranscrisisline.net/

I left Vietnam in 1972 and even then the demise of the south was apparent. We spent 50,000 American lives for what? Following Vietnam I was assigned as a Marine Corps recruiter Cleveland, Ohio. One of the kids I enlisted who was assigned Embassy Duty was among the last Marines plucked from the roof of the US Embassy when Saigon fell. I love how this email begins:

"Veterans may question the meaning of their service or whether it was worth the sacrifices they made. They may feel more moral distress about experiences they had during their service. It’s normal to feel this way. Talk with your friends and families, reach out to battle buddies, connect with a peer-to-peer network, or sign up for mental health services. Scroll down for a list common reactions and coping advice".

Nice to know it's "normal" to feel this way. My heart goes out to the parents and families who lost loved ones in this latest and greatest failure.

The Taliban is far from done and will, like ISIS continue to grow and rest assured, as they spawn new terrorist and we in the US portray ourselves as weak we will hear from them again.

Ron
 

roscoe

Well-known member
No it is not - it's poor logic only when accepted that the assumed intent is success and that success is defined as you and I think it is, and you're assuming that's the operative intent and that success the operative success without solid evidence for that assumption. Actually there's more evidence for the contrary. eg Biden has already demonstrated his disregard for his oath to uphold the Constitution, his disrespect for the law and the legislature and the Court, and his failures to address multiple crises confronting the country within and without, some of which are results of his policies and Executive Orders. If his definition of success is the destruction of a Constitutional Democratic Republic and its replacement by an authoritarian socialist state then he's pretty well on his way to his definition of success, or of whoever's controlling him, but that's a success defined, by me anyway, as failure.
You offered not one specific.
 

roscoe

Well-known member
Afghanistan.
No, I mean the way this particular circumstance demonstrates his disregarded of the US Constitution. That is a pretty specific document, so not upholding it can't simply be handwaved - 'oh, he's not being strong.', etc. If you make that charge, you need to be specific about which clause he has violated, and in which way, consistent with judicial interpretation of that document.
 

JWF III

New member
To answer the OP... The correct answer for getting out of Afghanistan...

1- get American civilians out of the country
2- get fully vetted translators (and families), etc. out of the country
3- get all military equipment out of the country
4- get all military personnel out of the country and chain the gates to all bases
5- send the B-2s in to bomb and flatten all existing bases

The correct answer is not difficult. It only takes using common sense. The #1 thing being to not leave $85billion in equipment for the people that have swore death to the US. The debacle of August 2021 will be payed for for a long time to come.

Wyman
 

wiscoaster

Well-known member
To answer the OP... The correct answer for getting out of Afghanistan...

<snip>
It's so obvious that I can't believe our military is really that stupid and so why I believe the Afghanistan debacle is intentional and directed by the CIC and his cabinet officers and therefore evidence of my contentions stated above: disregard, disrespect, failure and destruction. The oath of office is "preserve, protect and defend" and I believe it's the oath that's been violated, not one specific clause.
 

LiveLife

Member
Russia: 2 suicide attacks outside Kabul airport; 13 dead - https://news.yahoo.com/france-stop-kabul-airport-evacuations-065021850.html

"Twin suicide bombings struck Thursday outside Kabul’s airport, where large crowds of people trying to flee Afghanistan have massed, killing at least 13 people, Russian officials said.

... Russia’s Foreign Ministry gave the first official casualty count, saying 13 people had died and 15 were wounded.

U.S. officials said that American personnel were wounded in the blast, without elaborating. They spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss ongoing operations.

Pentagon spokesman John Kirby also confirmed the blasts, saying one near an airport entrance was a 'complex attack' and another was a short distance away by a hotel.

One explosion went off in a crowd of people waiting to enter the airport, according to Adam Khan, an Afghan waiting nearby. He said several people appeared to have been killed or wounded, including some who lost body parts."


Up to 1,500 U.S. citizens remain in Afghanistan as Aug. 31 deadline looms - https://news.yahoo.com/1-500-u-citizens-remain-121322771.html

"Secretary of State Antony Blinken warns that up to 1,500 U.S. citizens may still be awaiting evacuation from Afghanistan. The U.S. State Department is in direct contact with about 500 of the remaining Americans 'aggressively' reaching out to others as the August 31st withdrawal deadline looms."
 
Last edited:

roscoe

Well-known member
This is what happens when you don't have a clear and concise exit strategy. This is what happens when the commander and chief fails miserably to have a good plan using information from their joint chiefs of staff.

Ron

I completely agree.
 
The hostage crisis in Afghanistan will escalate, terrorist will increase their attacks and more civilians and soldiers will be killed all due to Biden's incompetence. I hope everyone that voted for Joe still takes comfort in the fact that he isn't Trump.
 

theotherwaldo

Well-known member
Yep.
Back to tribal warfare and religion-based terrorism, this time influenced by Communist China.
Afghanistan is where empires go to die.
 

Howland937

Active member
What was the answer? To which question? The exit?


The U.S. was never there to eradicate the Taliban. The U.S. was never really concerned with the Taliban except for the part where they allowed al-qaeda safe haven. Had they agreed to turn over bin Laden and AQA members after 9/11, we would have never had any (official) quarrel with the Taliban.

There was never going to be a solid exit strategy because leaders lost sight of the primary objective 239 months ago. Once the goalposts got moved, again and again, exiting was never going to be painless.

I understand that @roscoe made this thread prior to the suicide attack at the airport and most replies were also posted before that. The outrage has grown exponentially after the needless deaths of more U.S. troops.
Anyone who's shocked by how quickly the Taliban reclaimed authority hasn't paid much attention to Afghanistan's history. So I'll answer the OP's question with a question.

Would the public be equally outraged if the U.S. had managed to get all of our personnel home before AFG forces were overran?
 

roscoe

Well-known member
What was the answer? To which question? The exit?


The U.S. was never there to eradicate the Taliban. The U.S. was never really concerned with the Taliban except for the part where they allowed al-qaeda safe haven. Had they agreed to turn over bin Laden and AQA members after 9/11, we would have never had any (official) quarrel with the Taliban.

There was never going to be a solid exit strategy because leaders lost sight of the primary objective 239 months ago. Once the goalposts got moved, again and again, exiting was never going to be painless.

I understand that @roscoe made this thread prior to the suicide attack at the airport and most replies were also posted before that. The outrage has grown exponentially after the needless deaths of more U.S. troops.
Anyone who's shocked by how quickly the Taliban reclaimed authority hasn't paid much attention to Afghanistan's history. So I'll answer the OP's question with a question.

Would the public be equally outraged if the U.S. had managed to get all of our personnel home before AFG forces were overran?

It depends on the time frame you are talking about. If we had actually killed OBL in 2003 or so, then we should have just split. But now, we have created a power vacuum, made commitments, and built institutions. We probably are morally responsible for protecting these things and the people who committed to them, even if doing so is painful for us. Morality might trump our self-interest.
 

Howland937

Active member
It depends on the time frame you are talking about. If we had actually killed OBL in 2003 or so, then we should have just split. But now, we have created a power vacuum, made commitments, and built institutions. We probably are morally responsible for protecting these things and the people who committed to them, even if doing so is painful for us. Morality might trump our self-interest.
My time frame was based on the generic "20 year war" description, then subtracted one month from that to come out to 239. Math may not be exact, but pretty certain that the objective became murky within the first month. It was originally about bin Laden, but became apparent right away that there were no viable means to go after him as long as the Taliban was protecting him. The derailment began as soon as it was determined that we needed to oust them in order to have the ability to pursue OBL.

America wanted vengeance (or justice. Matter of perspective) and didn't have the patience to wait for OBL to show himself. Based on the atrocities the Taliban committed, the whole "friend of my enemy is my enemy" was an easy sell. American people wanted blood. Myself included. But really, we stuck our whole fist in a bucket of water. We displaced a lot of water, but nobody should be surprised what happened as soon as we took our fist back out.

So whether OBL was killed in the opening days in Mazar-i Sharif, or in Tora Bora when they missed him by a few hours, or in 2011...the minute the decision was made to displace the Taliban was the minute an easy exit became impossible.

Because of all that, I agree that we owe the people of Afghanistan a better fate than we left them. We owe the people who fought and bled and died there, and their loved ones, an ending more befitting their sacrifice. We owe the kids of our own country an explanation of why, for the entirety of their lifetimes, they'll be paying for it.

That's the M.O. of American political leadership of the last 60+ years though. Only the names of the countries change.
 
Last edited:

roscoe

Well-known member
My time frame was based on the generic "20 year war" description, then subtracted one month from that to come out to 239. Math may not be exact, but pretty certain that the objective became murky within the first month. It was originally about bin Laden, but became apparent right away that there were no viable means to go after him as long as the Taliban was protecting him. The derailment began as soon as it was determined that we needed to oust them in order to have the ability to pursue OBL.

America wanted vengeance (or justice. Matter of perspective) and didn't have the patience to wait for OBL to show himself. Based on the atrocities the Taliban committed, the whole "friend of my enemy is my enemy" was an easy sell. American people wanted blood. Myself included. But really, we stuck our whole fist in a bucket of water. We displaced a lot of water, but nobody should be surprised what happened as soon as we took our fist back out.

So whether OBL was killed in the opening days in Mazar-i Sharif, or in Tora Bora when they missed him by a few hours, or in 2011...the minute the decision was made to displace the Taliban was the minute an easy exit became impossible.

Because of all that, I agree that we owe the people of Afghanistan a better fate than we left them. We owe the people who fought and bled and died there, and their loved ones, an ending more befitting their sacrifice. We owe the kids of our own country an explanation of why, for the entirety of their lifetimes, they'll be paying for it.

That's the M.O. of American political leadership of the last 60+ years though. Only the names of the countries change.
Exactly.
 

wiscoaster

Well-known member
Would the public be equally outraged if the U.S. had managed to get all of our personnel home before AFG forces were overran?
No.
And I don't see a major problem with that, because it's just natural human behavior to value your "own" more highly than others. I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying that's the nature of human beings. Humans are not perfect and never will be this side of life.
 
Top