Help me understand.

roscoe

Well-known member
Wrong.

Those outfitted for a fight were there to engage the expected Antifa rioters--and the Antifa folks were apparently too cowardly (or too smart) to show up.

That may be true, actually. Not that Antifa cared about them, but that the MAGA bunch feared they would show up. In which case, all it took was an incendiary speech to get them to break into the Capitol Building. Because they absolutely did do it, with the plainly articulated intention of stopping the ballot count.

I am still suspicious of the zip-tie guys, though.
 
That may be true, actually. Not that Antifa cared about them, but that the MAGA bunch feared they would show up. In which case, all it took was an incendiary speech to get them to break into the Capitol Building. Because they absolutely did do it, with the plainly articulated intention of stopping the ballot count.

I am still suspicious of the zip-tie guys, though.
Zip tie guys just wanted to be able to control the Antifa boys who attacked.

I truly do not see how "go and protest patriotically and peacefully" can be twisted to "incendiary."
 

roscoe

Well-known member
Zip tie guys just wanted to be able to control the Antifa boys who attacked.

I truly do not see how "go and protest patriotically and peacefully" can be twisted to "incendiary."

Well if they didn't plan to attack, but changed their mind after the speech, something set them off. Only MAGA types have been identified and/or arrested, and we have tons of photos and video from social media, so we know who it was, and who it wasn't. And it wasn't some Antifa moles, whatever the conspiracy theorists would like us to believe.

The question is - did they (some of them) plan to do it ahead of time, or did Trump set them off?
 

roscoe

Well-known member
Zip tie guys just wanted to be able to control the Antifa boys who attacked.

I truly do not see how "go and protest patriotically and peacefully" can be twisted to "incendiary."

Well, since they are civilians, that would be felony kidnapping, I would guess. I can't imagine citizen's arrest being a legit defense if you go in with zipties and baseball bats.

As to Trump's speech, well you can take a quote out of context, but just ask the Republicans who condemned Trump's speech (a partial list:): Tom Cotton, Richard Burr, Chris Christie, Liz Cheney, Kevin Cramer, Brian Fitzpatrick, John Thune, John Cornyn, Ben Sasse, Bill Cassidy, Mike Braun, Mitch McConnell, etc. etc. They all agree that Trump was significantly responsible for whipping up the mob. People are going to see what they want to see, but the rest of the country and world pretty much agrees as to what happened.
 
Republicans who condemned Trump were just responding to polling of their constituents.

Some have more pro trump constituents and some have more anti trump........thus comes their criticism or non criticism.

Politicians take stands that will keep them in office........don't we know that by now?

And yes, since Antifa comes ARMED........zip ties to arrest them would be accepted.

So, Antifa didn't show...........that was a good thing.

Let's not forget the hundreds of thousands of Trump supporters that protested peacefully (just as he asked).

Why focus on a few hundred crazy radicals who damaged public property and attacked police?
 
Well if they didn't plan to attack, but changed their mind after the speech, something set them off. Only MAGA types have been identified and/or arrested, and we have tons of photos and video from social media, so we know who it was, and who it wasn't. And it wasn't some Antifa moles, whatever the conspiracy theorists would like us to believe.

The question is - did they (some of them) plan to do it ahead of time, or did Trump set them off?

It's obvious that some had a plan to wreak havoc.........it's also obvious that Trump's admonition to "protest peacefully and patriotically" was ignored by a few hundred people.

What we cannot ignore is that hundreds of thousands of Trump's supporters DID protest peacefully and patriotically--just as he asked.
 

roscoe

Well-known member
It's obvious that some had a plan to wreak havoc.........it's also obvious that Trump's admonition to "protest peacefully and patriotically" was ignored by a few hundred people.

What we cannot ignore is that hundreds of thousands of Trump's supporters DID protest peacefully and patriotically--just as he asked.

Well, that was not a crowd of hundreds of thousands. Have you seen the footage?

Currently, estimates range from 5,000-10,000 at the Capitol. Between 500-800 entered, 400 of whom have been identified by the FBI/DOJ.

What do you mean we can't ignore the peaceful protestors? Do they expect to get a lollipop for not breaking the law? People around the country protest peacefully every day without expecting extra credit on their term paper.

The IMPORTANT thing is that some 500-800 MAGA supporters stormed the US Capitol to try to change the outcome of a US presidential election. It was the first time the US capitol had been attacked since the War of 1812, and it was done by MAGA supporters right after a Trump speech. This was the largest violent insurrection in the US since the Civil War. Those are the facts that will be remembered by historians and schoolchildren in 100 years. And that will be a big part of Trump's legacy, whether his incitement was intentional or incidental.




Make no mistake. These are the images history will remember:

1619978486574.png

1619978600163.png

1619978696394.png

1619979044996.png

1619978841190.png

1619978937353.png
 
Last edited:
Odd, I remember news reports at the time saying hundreds of thousands of people protested.

And saying that ANY of them wanted to change the outcome of the presidential election is wild speculation.

Incitement? His speech ended with "go and protest peacefully and patriotically."

Protest.........not "change an outcome."

Peacefully and patriotically........not riot.

You seem to be intentionally twisting reality.
 

roscoe

Well-known member
Odd, I remember news reports at the time saying hundreds of thousands of people protested.

And saying that ANY of them wanted to change the outcome of the presidential election is wild speculation.

Incitement? His speech ended with "go and protest peacefully and patriotically."

Protest.........not "change an outcome."

Peacefully and patriotically........not riot.

You seem to be intentionally twisting reality.

Please show me the evidence for 100s of thousands. Please, anything.

There are protestors ON VIDEO saying they wanted to change the outcome of the election. They literally said, ON VIDEO, that they wanted to hang Mike Pence for not stopping the vote count. Right after Trump, in his speech, said he wanted the vote count stopped (in direct contravention of the US Constitution, BTW).

Look, Trump has a long history of encouraging violence by his followers, because (despite his personal cowardice), he is a thug with no respect for law or morality. Here is just some from 2016:

They knew what he wanted. And when they actually did it, he waited hours before denouncing it. Fortunately, the country's institutions are stronger than those MAGA rioters.
 
Please show me the evidence for 100s of thousands. Please, anything.

There are protestors ON VIDEO saying they wanted to change the outcome of the election. They literally said, ON VIDEO, that they wanted to hang Mike Pence for not stopping the vote count. Right after Trump, in his speech, said he wanted the vote count stopped (in direct contravention of the US Constitution, BTW).

Look, Trump has a long history of encouraging violence by his followers, because (despite his personal cowardice), he is a thug with no respect for law or morality. Here is just some from 2016:

They knew what he wanted. And when they actually did it, he waited hours before denouncing it. Fortunately, the country's institutions are stronger than those MAGA rioters.
Oh please.

Your irrational Trump hate doesn't prove anything........except that you're irrational.

Quoting the criminals who broke into the Capitol proves only that THEY were as irrational as you are.

The vast majority of Trump protestors who were there that day were peaceful........just as Trump requested.

I told you that I remember reports that day that there were hundreds of thousands of protestors there.

Whatever the numbers, only a small percentage participated in the riots........and that's the important thing.

By far, most did exactly as Trump asked when he said, "Protest peacefully and patriotically."
 

roscoe

Well-known member
Looks like a large group to me.

But as to Trump, yes, I genuinely dislike him. He brings out the worst in his followers, following the traditional fascist model of dividing the nation and world into us vs. them. He is a serial liar driven entirely by his own venality. There is no underlying moral core, nor even a broader philosophical principle driving his actions, beyond his ego.

All of these problems with his character is why his presidency was so unsuccessful. He had the highest turnover in the upper administration since Nixon because nobody could work with him. Because he was such an arrogant negotiator, he had only one major legislative accomplishment - the tax break for the rich. He lost the House, the Senate, and the presidency. He could only accomplish policy change through executive order, almost all of which was overturned, literally, on Biden's first day in office.

On top of this, he blew it on COVID, and his egotism and poor leadership led to the death of some 200,000 additional Americans (all of which is readily documented).

Finally, he created a narrative of election fraud, completely out of thin air, to satisfy an ego deeply wounded by losing the election as an incumbent. This led to the catastrophe of Jan. 6.

So yes, it is fair to say that I don't like him. There are Republicans I respect, but he is not one of them. Fortunately, the emperor had no clothes, so he may damage the Republican party, but the country is largely done with him.
 

But as to Trump, yes, I genuinely dislike him. He brings out the worst in his followers, following the traditional fascist model of dividing the nation and world into us vs. them. He is a serial liar driven entirely by his own venality. There is no underlying moral core, nor even a broader philosophical principle driving his actions, beyond his ego.

All of these problems with his character is why his presidency was so unsuccessful. He had the highest turnover in the upper administration since Nixon because nobody could work with him. Because he was such an arrogant negotiator, he had only one major legislative accomplishment - the tax break for the rich. He lost the House, the Senate, and the presidency. He could only accomplish policy change through executive order, almost all of which was overturned, literally, on Biden's first day in office.

On top of this, he blew it on COVID, and his egotism and poor leadership led to the death of some 200,000 additional Americans (all of which is readily documented).

Finally, he created a narrative of election fraud, completely out of thin air, to satisfy an ego deeply wounded by losing the election as an incumbent. This led to the catastrophe of Jan. 6.

So yes, it is fair to say that I don't like him. There are Republicans I respect, but he is not one of them. Fortunately, the emperor had no clothes, so he may damage the Republican party, but the country is largely done with him.

You wish.

He was the change-maker, the Earthquake that rattled America.

He may not be electable due to his combative personality and harsh Twitter presence, but his policies are still loved by roughly half of Americans.

Another standard bearer, maybe his beautiful daughter Ivanka, will carry on his legacy.

After four years of Biden Open Borders brings a flood of toxic invaders........the quiet confidence and softer presence of Ivanka will finally build that essential wall and lower the crushing Biden tax burden.

And begin the task of Making America Great Again.
 

roscoe

Well-known member
You wish.

He was the change-maker, the Earthquake that rattled America.

He may not be electable due to his combative personality and harsh Twitter presence, but his policies are still loved by roughly half of Americans.

Another standard bearer, maybe his beautiful daughter Ivanka, will carry on his legacy.

After four years of Biden Open Borders brings a flood of toxic invaders........the quiet confidence and softer presence of Ivanka will finally build that essential wall and lower the crushing Biden tax burden.

And begin the task of Making America Great Again.

He definitely rattled America, since he appealed so directly to nationalism and populism. We hadn't really had anyone like that in the White House since Andrew Jackson. But most of the the first world learned its lesson on that particular kind of leader in the last century (although Turkey, India, and Brazil seemed not to have received the telegram).

Trump really caught us off-guard, but I doubt it will happen again. Yes, there is a certain percentage who like him, but it was a minority in the US by about 7 million people, and is unlikely to increase between now and 2024. Certainly, the Democrats will not be caught unawares again.

20204 will be entertaining, as people like Ted Cruz and Ron DiSantis try to rope in Trump's voters. If Ivanka is smart, she will stay out and keep counting her money. She is no public speaker.
 
Top