Election Reform

wiscoaster

Well-known member
So, the House has passed H.R.1 - the "For the People Act of 2021" - their so-called "election reform" bill, which in actuality will enable, institutionalize and legalize future election cheating. Just take a glance at the table of contents of this bill:


If this legislation gets through the Senate as-is and then signed by "tell-me-where-to-sign" Biden we're absolutely finished as the United States of America as envisioned and instituted by our Founders.
 

roscoe

Active member
Yeah, suddenly we will have democracy. The Republicans will be in trouble if everybody gets to vote.
 

roscoe

Active member
Yes, because apparently only Republicans care that we are a constitutional republic and NOT a democracy.

Apparently you don't understand how the American system works. It is only republican only in the law-making process and the Electoral College. You no longer have to be a white, property-owning male to vote.

Sorry.
 

The Last Outlaw

Active member
Apparently you don't understand how the American system works. It is only republican only in the law-making process and the Electoral College. You no longer have to be a white, property-owning male to vote.

Sorry.
Does that change the fact that we were founded as, and are supposed to still be, a republic?
 

10mm Mike

New member
Apparently you don't understand how the American system works. It is only republican only in the law-making process and the Electoral College. You no longer have to be a white, property-owning male to vote.

Sorry.

So you're claiming that I don't understand how the system works while immediately conceding that I'm right about how the system works. Cute.
 

roscoe

Active member
Does that change the fact that we were founded as, and are supposed to still be, a republic?

Well, lots of things have changed since the country was founded. Like, for instance, who gets to vote. That is why we have so many constitutional amendments.

But to your question - 'republic' and 'democracy' are fuzzy terms. In general, the United States is considered a 'democratic republic' (as in, a republic in which the lawmakers are elected democratically, as opposed to appointed by local governments).

Didn't you guys take civics in middle school?
 

The Last Outlaw

Active member
Well, lots of things have changed since the country was founded. Like, for instance, who gets to vote. That is why we have so many constitutional amendments.

But to your question - 'republic' and 'democracy' are fuzzy terms. In general, the United States is considered a 'democratic republic' (as in, a republic in which the lawmakers are elected democratically, as opposed to appointed by local governments).

Didn't you guys take civics in middle school?
I'm old enough to have gone to a junior high school, but that was many years and a lot of brain cells ago.
 

theotherwaldo

Well-known member
Didn't you guys take civics in middle school?
Yes.
I also taught it to middle-schoolers.
Democracy is not a fuzzy concept. It is a form of mob rule unless moderated in some way.
By itself, it is harsh and usually becomes perverted into a tyranny within a generation or two.
Republics, on the other hand, are pretty fuzzy and are entirely dependent upon the quality of their founding documents and their leadership.
 

wiscoaster

Well-known member
...
Democracy is not a fuzzy concept. It is a form of mob rule unless moderated in some way.
By itself, it is harsh and usually becomes perverted into a tyranny within a generation or two.
....
Yes, and it's my take that those politicians that constantly refer to "our democracy" are referring only to a certain form of democracy - their form - which I believe to be more like the "mobacracy" form referred to above than the republican form envisioned by the Founders.
 

roscoe

Active member
Yes, and it's my take that those politicians that constantly refer to "our democracy" are referring only to a certain form of democracy - their form - which I believe to be more like the "mobacracy" form referred to above than the republican form envisioned by the Founders.

Are you suggesting we should limit suffrage to only certain classes of citizens? Because that is what the founders envisioned.

Personally, I don't think you should be able to vote unless you have a PhD in a scientific discipline from an R1 university, can rebuild a 22R motor in your garage, can navigate using only the stars. And be right-handed. And handsome.
 
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WrongHanded

Well-known member
But to your question - 'republic' and 'democracy' are fuzzy terms. In general, the United States is considered a 'democratic republic' (as in, a republic in which the lawmakers are elected democratically, as opposed to appointed by local governments).

Didn't you guys take civics in middle school?
I know people who were educated in other countries and seem to know more about our system of governance than some who were born and raised here. We definitely don't have the best education system.
 

wiscoaster

Well-known member
Are you suggesting we should limit suffrage to only certain classes of citizens? Because that is what the founders envisioned.
No, classes of citizens wasn't their vision, and if you're referring to the wording of Article I that was in reference to counting for apportioning representatives and taxes among the states and has nothing to do with voting privilege, and frankly even that was a concession of necessity to get the southern states to sign on.
 

10mm Mike

New member
Are you suggesting we should limit suffrage to only certain classes of citizens? Because that is what the founders envisioned.

Personally, I don't think you should be able to vote unless you have a PhD in a scientific discipline from an R1 university, can rebuild a 22R motor in your garage, can navigate using only the stars. And be right-handed. And handsome.

Its already limited to certain classes of citizens. With rare exception, felons can't vote. Citizens under 18 can't vote. Citizens that aren't registered to vote can't vote. I'm sure there are other classes of citizens that are also prohibited from voting. Do you think all prohibitions should be lifted so everyone and their 2 year old can vote?
 

roscoe

Active member
Its already limited to certain classes of citizens. With rare exception, felons can't vote. Citizens under 18 can't vote. Citizens that aren't registered to vote can't vote. I'm sure there are other classes of citizens that are also prohibited from voting. Do you think all prohibitions should be lifted so everyone and their 2 year old can vote?
Yeah, a young person isn't a different class.

But in response to your question, if a felon has served his full term, then he should regain all rights as a citizen.
 

theotherwaldo

Well-known member
Yeah, a young person isn't a different class.

But in response to your question, if a felon has served his full term, then he should regain all rights as a citizen.
I disagree.

The loss of rights is part of the full term, especially in the case of a violent or otherwise serious crime.

Anyway, most ex-cons that were convicted of minor crimes can apply to have most of their rights restored - if they care to.

My father didn't care to... .
 
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