Who's Still Wearing A Dem Diaper?

wiscoaster said:

I've personally experienced the effects of carbon dioxide poisoning while wearing an N95 mask.

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Tell us more please. Were you breathing too shallow to allow for enough fresh air to replace the exhaled air in the space between your face and the mask?

I've personally experienced the effects of carbon dioxide poisoning while wearing an N95 mask.

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If you read the sources, they explain how masks can cause a feeling of breathlessness, particularly during exertion. It's not due to "carbon dioxide poisoning".

Keep in mind I'm a former professional pilot, I've been to the altitude chamber, I think I know a little more than the average person about respiration and gas exchange in the lungs and bloodstream.

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It's not about gas exchange in the lungs or anything to do with breathing. The openings, even in an N95 mask are simply too large to trap carbon dioxide and cause the concentration to build up enough to cause problems. It's just not going to happen. It would be like trying to drown someone by filling a hair net with water and submerging their face in it--the water goes through the holes in the net far too easily for it to work.

I doesn't have anything to do with either of what you guys are hypothesizing. When you inhale with a sealed mask on your face you are reinhaling a percentage of what you have just exhaled, and the percentage of CO2 in that inhaled air is going to be greater than the normal percent of CO2 in the atmosphere. If the partial pressure of the CO2 in the air you inhale is greater than normal atmospheric partial pressure then the percent of CO2 in your blood is going to increase, because the blood absorbs based on the partial pressure of the gas it's exposed to across the alveoli membranes in the lungs. And that will be an abnormally high level as compared to breathing normal atmosphere.

Then why was it I experienced this ONLY when wearing an N95 mask and not when wearing a standard surgical-grade mask under the same circumstances? The mask type was the only variable.

When you inhale with a sealed mask on your face you are reinhaling a percentage of what you have just exhaled, and the percentage of CO2 in that inhaled air is going to be greater than the normal percent of CO2 in the atmosphere.

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Yes and yes. But not remotely enough to cause any problems.

If the partial pressure of the CO2 in the air you inhale is greater than normal atmospheric partial pressure then the percent of CO2 in your blood is going to increase, because the blood absorbs based on the partial pressure of the gas it's exposed across the alveoli membrane.

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Again, yes and yes. But again, not remotely enough to cause any problems.

The openings in the mask have nothing to do with it.

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They have everything to do with it. The fact that they are large enough that CO2 can't be "trapped" in the mask limits the amount that will be rebreathed.

It's the percent of the gas in the rebreathed air.

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Almost. It's the percent of the gas in the rebreathed air combined with the amount of gas in the new air that comes in through the mask. And it's not remotely high enough to cause any problems.

The mask is not trapping all the air you exhale--only a small amount of one's exhalation will stay in the mask after an exhalation to be rebreathed--the rest goes out through the holes in the mask.

The masks is not preventing new air from coming into the mask--and that new air will have the normal percentage of CO2 in the surrounding air.

So yes, there is some rebreathing and therefore measurably higher CO2 levels when wearing a properly fitting N95 mask. But it is not nearly enough to cause CO2 poisoning.

You're on the right general track and your terminology is correct, but you are making the unjustified assumption that because the CO2 levels are higher they must be high enough to be dangerous. That's a totally incorrect assumption. Just because there's a measurable difference doesn't mean that the difference is enough to be problematic.

What you're arguing is like saying that because too much acetaminophen (Tylenol TM) is toxic and taking two tablets instead of one results in a measurably higher level in the blood, then taking two tablets must be dangerous. That's totally incorrect. Just because there's measurably more doesn't imply it's toxic. It has to reach toxic levels to be toxic and taking two tablets instead of one isn't enough to do that.

Same here. Properly fitting N95 masks do measurably increase the CO2 levels--but not nearly enough to cause problems.

wiscoaster said:

When you inhale with a sealed mask on your face you are reinhaling a percentage of what you have just exhaled, and the percentage of CO2 in that inhaled air is going to be greater than the normal percent of CO2 in the atmosphere.

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This is true. But that's a very small volume compared to lung capacity, provided you're breathing is not very shallow. There's also air in the throat and lungs that has a higher average CO2 content than in the atmosphere. We can never breath out everything. This tiny amount in the mask is not a major concern. But you have to bear in mind that as this transfer is based on osmosis, to remove CO2 through the cell wall of the lungs, air with a lower CO2 content must be inhaled.

wiscoaster said:

If the partial pressure of the CO2 in the air you inhale is greater than normal atmospheric partial pressure then the percent of CO2 in your blood is going to increase, because the blood absorbs based on the partial pressure of the gas it's exposed to across the alveoli membranes in the lungs. And that will be an abnormally high level as compared to breathing normal atmosphere.

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This makes very little sense. You're suggesting that the pressure of the gases inside the mask is higher than the atmospheric pressure outside the mask based on the higher content of CO2, and that this would make a difference? See my first point.

wiscoaster said:

Then why was it I experienced this ONLY when wearing an N95 mask and not when wearing a standard surgical-grade mask under the same circumstances? The mask type was the only variable.

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The tight fitting N95 masks make a seal around the face. Surgical masks do not do this. Air can and is breathed around the gaps of a surgical mask. The intent of that type of mask is to avoid breathing directly on a patient. Some air travel through it but is diffused by the mask. Some goes around it.

An N95 is designed to ensure all inhaled air travels through the filter, thereby filter contaminant out of the inhaled air. This results in substantially more effort to breath. OSHA believes that wearing such a mask can reduce a workers efficiency by up to something close to 1/3rd. That's just due to the extra effort needed to suck air through the filter. If you don't breath in enough air, you don't breath in enough oxygen. Oxygen deprevation may have been what you were experiencing.

Interestingly, some tests were done on closed circuit diving rebreather units by the US Navy. One test involved upping the CO2 to find out in the divers could tell. They could and surfaced. The reason is that the body reflex to breath (in all but a tiny minority of individuals who are anomalies) is based on CO2 build up. The body wants to get rid of the CO2 so breathing rate increases. This automatic bodily reaction is consciously obvious if a person in watching for it. The other test involved reducing the oxygen levels. All the divers passed out under water. A lack of oxygen does not cause us the same obvious bodily responses, and is much harder to notice. Mostly, when we feel the need to breath, it's not lack of oxygen but excess CO2.

For what it's worth, I wear an N95 filter half mask respirator or N95 disposable mask most days at work, and for extended period. I also qualified as an Advanced Open Water Diver through PADI when I was 15 years old (not that the certification is terribly impressive, but it shows some level of understanding beyond common knowledge).

WrongHanded said:

This makes very little sense. You're suggesting that the pressure of the gases inside the mask is higher than the atmospheric pressure outside the mask based on the higher content of CO2, and that this would make a difference? See my first point.

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Research "partial pressure" with respect to a combination of gases in an atmosphere.

wiscoaster said:

Research "partial pressure" with respect to a combination of gases in an atmosphere.

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I understand what it means. I just think it's irrelevant. There's already more exhaled high CO2 content air in your trachea than in the mask. We deal with it in every breath we take with or without a mask. It is a non issue.

Research "partial pressure" with respect to a combination of gases in an atmosphere.

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As noted, there will be slightly higher concentrations of CO2 in the air you breath in due to the fact that not all of the exhaled air clears the mask and some of it gets breathed back in.

What you're missing (or perhaps what you refuse to accept) is that the inceased concentration won't be high enough to be a problem. You're assuming that "more" is automatically equivalent to "toxic levels" and that is an unwarranted assumption.

There is a lot of good information out there. Someone who keeps an open mind, does their own research and is willing to form an opinion based on the evidence shouldn't have much trouble getting at the truth.

Some more reading that is generally applicable.

JohnKSa said:

What you're missing (or perhaps what you refuse to accept) is that the inceased concentration won't be high enough to be a problem. You're assuming that "more" is automatically equivalent to "toxic levels" and that is an unwarranted assumption.

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What is "high enough to be a problem" is relative to the individual and their health status and an elevated level of CO2 in the blood doesn't have to be at or near toxic levels to be a problem for anyone. Borderline elevations can have detrimental effects on job performance, especially where altertness and problem-solving are involved or where operation of dangerous machinery requires intense concentration or fine motor skills. Mild or temporary cognitive deficits are often not noticeable to the person affected by them. Until they do something stupid or hurt themselves or someone else.

BTW the link you posted addresses blood oxygenation wrt masks and that isn't an issue. There's more than enough oxygen in the air - there's no adverse effect of reducing O2 partial pressure until its partial pressure is reduced to the level it would have in an atmosphere above 10,000 feet. So reduction of oxygen isn't an issue; increase of carbon dioxide is a different issue, related yes, because they have a normal ratio in a standard atmosphere, but not a strict dependency, ie too much of one means too little of the other doesn't hold.

Hypercapnia isn't a deprivation of oxygen, it's a change in blood pH. Blood becomes too acidic due to the extra CO2 it's carrying. The amount of CO2 the blood carries is directly dependent on the partial pressue of the CO2 in the inhaled air. Acidosis first produces mostly neurological symptoms, but even a minor elevation over a long period can stress other organs.

wiscoaster said:

When you inhale with a sealed mask on your face you are reinhaling a percentage of what you have just exhaled, and the percentage of CO2 in that inhaled air is going to be greater than the normal percent of CO2 in the atmosphere.

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The above is exactly what I was saying when I said; "Were you breathing too shallow to allow for enough fresh air to replace the exhaled air in the space between your face and the mask?"

wiscoaster said:

If the partial pressure of the CO2 in the air you inhale is greater than normal atmospheric partial pressure then the percent of CO2 in your blood is going to increase, because the blood absorbs based on the partial pressure of the gas it's exposed to across the alveoli membranes in the lungs.

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The dead space in a person's airway is about 150 ml. With a typical lung volume of over 2 liters and exhaled air being about 5% CO2, the average person has little to worry about. If they did, then I think NIOSH would be restricting their (N95) use.

Interesting how I never heard anyone get loud about how bad N95 masks were until they were asked to wear something to prevent spreading infections to others.

BTW the link you posted addresses blood oxygenation wrt masks...

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I know what's in it. I read it. I explicitly said it was generally applicable and it is. It relates to the wearing of masks and their effects. Not specifically to CO2 levels. It does address the issue of rebreathing mask contents in detail with respect to oxygen which is generally applicable to the topic under discussion.

Hypercapnia isn't a deprivation of oxygen, it's a change in blood pH. Blood becomes too acidic due to the extra CO2 it's carrying. The amount of CO2 the blood carries is directly dependent on the partial pressue of the CO2 in the inhaled air. Acidosis first produces mostly neurological symptoms, but even a minor elevation over a long period can stress other organs.

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I know what hypercapnia is and what its effects are. Thanks for the summary.

What is "high enough to be a problem" is relative to the individual and their health status and an elevated level of CO2 in the blood doesn't have to be at or near toxic levels to be a problem for anyone. Borderline elevations can have detrimental effects on job performance, especially where altertness and problem-solving are involved or where operation of dangerous machinery requires intense concentration or fine motor skills. Mild or temporary cognitive deficits are often not noticeable to the person affected by them. Until they do something stupid or hurt themselves or someone else.

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All true statements. Now, let's think about what group might be nearly universally wearing N95 masks for long periods when mental performance including alertness, problem-solving and motor skills could be critical. How about the medical profession?

In fact, that's the focus of some of the studies for just the reasons you mention--nobody wants a medical professional who can't solve problems, who isn't alert, who can't concentrate, who has impaired fine motor skills. The results of those studies? It's not an issue. It doesn't change the CO2 levels in the blood enough to cause any of the problems you mention.

It won't cause hypercapnia. It won't cause the borderline conditions that you correctly describe. It's just not an issue. No matter how often the contrary is claimed. No matter how often the symptoms are listed or the possible issues are described, they just don't apply because N95 masks won't raise the CO2 levels enough for any of them to occur. It's been carefully studied exactly because there were valid concerns--and the results put those concerns to rest.

One more thing to think about. EVEN if all the incorrect claims about N95 masks were true, one could avoid all that by wearing surgical or cloth masks instead. Which means that if the goal is to justify not wearing a mask, even if it were possible to prove that N95 masks cause hypercapnia (they don't), doing so still wouldn't justify not wearing a mask. It would only justify not wearing N95 masks.

Even the shallowest inhalation requires many times more volume of air than contained within the mask. Normal atmosphere contains 0.04% CO2, so your figure of 5% in exhaled air, which I don't dispute because I didn't bother to fact-check, would be an excess of 125 times over normal, but please feel free to verify my math because it's early and I haven't had my coffee, yet. So even if you're re-breathing only one-tenth of your exhaled air, your're still inhaling significantly more CO2 than normal.

I don't think I've ever seen a doctor, or any medical professional, wearing an N95 mask (in pre-pandemic days). PS - specifics about rebreathing oxygen content is NOT applicable to rebreathing CO2 content; re-read my post above.

I know what I experienced; it was physiological, not psychological, and it wasn't due to improper breathing. I walk fast, and I was in a hurry, so it was under a state of modest exertion, with breathing normally related to my activity level. And my symptoms disappated as soon as I went outdoors and removed my mask and took a few deep breaths. I doubt a normal and healthy person at rest will experience hypercapnia resulting from N95 mask-related respiratory acidosis. But I'm convinced that was what I experienced in the store. I'm over 70, so maybe age was a factor, though I have no respiratory or circulatory system health issues. If either of you guys are old coots, too, feel free to test-duplicate my experience. Put on an N95 mask (not one w/ exhale vents) and properly sealed, and walk fast enough to raise your heart rate and breathing rates slightly and continue for at least 10 minutes.

wiscoaster said:

Wronghanded: I don't think I've ever seen a doctor, or any medical professional, wearing an N95 mask (in pre-pandemic days).

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Me neither. Typically, standard surgical masks (as I said) are worn primarily to avoid surgeons and other doctors breathing onto patients. Such as into an open body cavity during surgery. They also protect against splatter of bodily fluids entering the nose and mouth.

Sorry, I mis-attributed my responses; blame the lack of caffeine in my blood stream.

I edited my post to remove the screen names and also added some additional comments.

WrongHanded said:

Do you happen to know what percentage of people in your state are ignoring the mandates and gathering together in private? Maybe at Christmas or New Year's, or even back during Thanksgiving? Do you know what percentage travelled to see family and spent hours sucking in each other's exhaled breath in a confined environment? Do you know how many of them had the virus but were unaware they were contagious?

It's hard to say mask wearing and social distancing don't work when the rate of non-compliance is unknown.

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Percentage? No, and you won't find any reliable statistics either. Reliable is something my state isn't capable of. I can only speak of what i see in my area and in the adjoining Texas area I go to.

I see a lot of nonmask wearers. I wear a mask into businesses for a political statement, not because I think something that is incapable of catching something as small as a virus does the least bit of good plus I don't want any business fined $5000 a day for non compliance as some have been. My mask has the statement "This mask is a worthless as our governor in big white, easy to read, letters on a black mask. I have received lots question about where to get one like it, I would wear one if they would let me, and I like that comments. Keeping your distance is something that doesn't get a lot of attention either.

My entire family consisting of four generation have continued to get together regularly throughtout all of this and no one has contacted covid. We had a family reunion where 63 people from here, Texas, and Arizona were together for three days in a meeting hall and no one in the group has contacted covid. No one I know personally has had covid.

You have my blessing to do as you wish. Please allow me the same as it has worked well for me and mine.

doubleh said:

My entire family consisting of four generation have continued to get together regularly throughtout all of this and no one has contacted covid. We had a family reunion where 63 people from here, Texas, and Arizona were together for three days in a meeting hall and no one in the group has contacted covid. No one I know personally has had covid.

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I truly hope that continues to be the case for you and your family. For many it is not.

doubleh said:

My entire family consisting of four generation have continued to get together regularly throughtout all of this and no one has contacted covid.

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Good on you!! This is how people are supposed to live!! Not in isolation for fear of their lives.

PS - specifics about rebreathing oxygen content is NOT applicable to rebreathing CO2 content; re-read my post above.

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Specifics, no. That's why I have twice (three times now) said that the applicability was general. The information about volumes, dead air, etc. do relate generally.

So even if you're re-breathing only one-tenth of your exhaled air, your're still inhaling significantly more CO2 than normal.

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Why are we still debating this? No one is disagreeing with you. Yes, it's measurably more than normal--all the studies I can find confirm that fact. But they also confirm that it is not enough to cause any of the symptoms you describe.

know what I experienced; it was physiological, not psychological, and it wasn't due to improper breathing. I walk fast, and I was in a hurry, so it was under a state of modest exertion, with breathing normally related to my activity level. And my symptoms disappated as soon as I went outdoors and removed my mask and took a few deep breaths. I doubt a normal and healthy person at rest will experience hypercapnia resulting from N95 mask-related respiratory acidosis. But I'm convinced that was what I experienced in the store. I'm over 70, so maybe age was a factor, though I have no respiratory or circulatory system health issues. If either of you guys are old coots, too, feel free to test-duplicate my experience. Put on an N95 mask (not one w/ exhale vents) and properly sealed, and walk fast enough to raise your heart rate and breathing rates slightly and continue for at least 10 minutes.

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As I mentioned before, "If you read the sources, they explain how masks can cause a feeling of breathlessness, particularly during exertion. It's not due to "carbon dioxide poisoning"."

However, because it does put extra stress on the entire respiration system, engaging in physical exertion while wearing an N95 mask is not recommended. But not due to any risk of CO2 poisoning.

"Measurements of the metabolic parameters pH, PCO2, PO2 and lactate and the heart rate recovery did not differ significantly between the three tests (Table (Table33)."

My entire family consisting of four generation have continued to get together regularly throughtout all of this and no one has contacted covid. We had a family reunion where 63 people from here, Texas, and Arizona were together for three days in a meeting hall and no one in the group has contacted covid. No one I know personally has had covid.

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I am honestly very happy for you and your family. There are others who have not been so fortunate, including some of my own family. I'm glad y'all were able to get together without any negative effects and I sincerely hope that your luck holds until this mess is over.

...something that is incapable of catching something as small as a virus...

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Even cloth masks can help reduce spread. That's because it's not actually necessary for the mask to have openings small enough to catch a single virus particle. If you're interested in understanding why, there's been some good information posted on this thread.

JohnKSa said:

.... But they also confirm that it is not enough to cause any of the symptoms you describe.

As I mentioned before, "If you read the sources, they explain how masks can cause a feeling of breathlessness, particularly during exertion. It's not due to "carbon dioxide poisoning"."
....

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Actually, I don't believe I described any specific symptoms I experienced in this thread, yet. If you want to know, they included dizziness, fogged thinking, tunnel vision and dyspnea. Not covered by "a feeling of breathlessness", which is a physiological response to anxiety to get you to breath faster when facing a "fight or flight" situation and your body will need extra oxygen. Easily recognized and easily compensated for if noticed and the situation is inappropriate. However, I was under no psychological stress at the time of the event.

You're still welcome to put me to the test by gathering and reporting your own actual empiral evidence, as offered above.

Actually, I don't believe I described any specific symptoms I experienced in this thread...

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You listed the symptoms of hypercapnia and also claimed that you had experienced it. I didn't think it was much of a deductive stretch to assume that the symptoms you were experienced were those of hypercapnia. If I put words in your mouth, I apologize--that was not my intent.

You're still welcome to put me to the test by gathering and reporting your own actual empiral evidence, as offered above.

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That's the cool thing about having a large percentage of the accumulated knowledge of humanity at one's fingertips.

It turns out that it is possible to find not just one, but several cases where medical professionals have collected empirical evidence on multiple subjects using medical equipment in controlled environments and provided the results for everyone's benefit. So there's no need to rely on anecdotal reports from one person, or personal experimentation to draw conclusions.

Just to be clear, I'm not claiming you did not experience the symptoms that you interpreted to be hypercapnia. What I am saying, based on the results of the study provided (and others with corroborate the results) was that while the symptoms may have seemed to be that of hypercapnia to you, they were not. The studies show that wearing N95 masks can not cause hypercapnia--even during exertion. The study results indicate that the symptoms were due to increased loading on the respiratory/cardio system due to the mask which can result in: "...severe subjective discomfort during exercise...", can be "...subjectively disturbing and ... accompanied by an increased perception of exertion...". These effects would logically be expected to be more severe in older persons.