Honest question - what was the answer in Afghanistan?

Howland937

Active member
No.
And I don't see a major problem with that, because it's just natural human behavior to value your "own" more highly than others. I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying that's the nature of human beings. Humans are not perfect and never will be this side of life.
So it all comes down to the fact that more Americans became endangered by the chosen process. I don't see it as being avoidable in any way though, no matter how the evacuation was handled. The Afghan military was never going to last long enough to get the training wheels off, so even if they loaded the last 500 American service members on 10 planes simultaneously, the airport was going to get overrun before those planes ever left the ground.

It's been a crappy situation 20 years in the making, and there may have been better ways of handling it. There was zero chance of any exit happening that didn't have basically the same outcome.
 

wiscoaster

Well-known member
So it all comes down to the fact that more Americans became endangered by the chosen process. I don't see it as being avoidable in any way though, no matter how the evacuation was handled. The Afghan military was never going to last long enough to get the training wheels off, so even if they loaded the last 500 American service members on 10 planes simultaneously, the airport was going to get overrun before those planes ever left the ground.

It's been a crappy situation 20 years in the making, and there may have been better ways of handling it. There was zero chance of any exit happening that didn't have basically the same outcome.
I disagree, but that's all hindsight, and the only judgment that's relevant is the judgment on the actual process and the actual outcome.
 

Howland937

Active member
I disagree, but that's all hindsight, and the only judgment that's relevant is the judgment on the actual process and the actual outcome.
It's hindsight, for sure....But it isn't unprecedented. Every significant conflict from the Korean War to present has had largely the same outcome. We send the best military the planet has ever known, then hamstring them with political red-tape and an ever changing objective. Create a power vacuum and look on, bewildered that either the very group we deposed returns to power...or in some cases, something far worse.
 

theotherwaldo

Well-known member
America never fights to win - we only fight to avoid losing.
This guarantees that either our wars never end or that we just walk away from them... .
 

Howland937

Active member
America never fights to win - we only fight to avoid losing.
This guarantees that either our wars never end or that we just walk away from them... .
Agree. That's why I'm surprised so many people are shocked at how this one ended. Politicians have been leaving our service members hanging out like dog balls for the better part of 70 years.
 

Howland937

Active member
I think the main reason is that this ending is so galling compared to previous is the unprecented and egregious degree of dishonesty, callousness and incompetence from those in charge.
I agree that it's everything you said, except the unprecedented part. None of it is novel to this situation. I'm honestly more surprised that the Biden apologists aren't defending him by claiming he merely used the playbook as written by multiple predecessors.
 

wiscoaster

Well-known member
... I'm honestly more surprised that the Biden apologists aren't defending him by claiming he merely used the playbook as written by multiple predecessors.
I think to a certain degree they are doing that, aren't they? "It's all Trump's fault" - as are any and all failures of Democratic executives and legislators.
 

wiscoaster

Well-known member
Possibly from the same playbook...
... written by the "deep state", "military-industrial complex", "big tech", or whatever name you choose to identify those entities with the money and the power to influence whatever and whomsoever they choose to implement their goals ...
 

Howland937

Active member
I'm not making excuses for the guy, and I don't know where the playbook originated...but there's plenty of precedent for "how to screw up withdrawing forces while simultaneously giving back everything that was accomplished, alienating your own troops and giving the finger to your allies".

It may very well be the chapter right after the one titled "How to blame the previous administration for everything that doesn't go right while still taking credit for anything that does"
Hell, maybe that's the book Nicholas Cage was trying to find in that movie.
 
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roscoe

Well-known member
I think the main reason is that this ending is so galling compared to previous is the unprecented and egregious degree of dishonesty, callousness and incompetence from those in charge.
If you are old enough to remember the end of Vietnam, then all this should ring bells. Of course, they are our allies in the region now, helping to balance China. What a waste . . .

But we have definitely been here before.

Oh, and Somalia - let's not forget that minor debacle. And um, Iraq - that one is still pretty much a mess.

So, in no way would I say this is unprecedented. Its just ugly is all, and that hurts.
 

roscoe

Well-known member
... written by the "deep state", "military-industrial complex", "big tech", or whatever name you choose to identify those entities with the money and the power to influence whatever and whomsoever they choose to implement their goals ...

Dick Cheney is probably the one you want to talk to.
 
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